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Thread: A few questions

  1. #1

    A few questions

    Namasté to you all -

    I had previously started a thread to pose a few questions, but the thread somehow disappeared. My apologies to anyone who might have replied (it wasn't my fault!).

    Just to make things clear, I am not a Hindu: I am a European 'pagan' (whatever that means) interested in Tradition (which of course includes Sanatana Dharma). As I have recently started reading about Shakta, partly by way of Tantra, i thought someone might help clarify a few doubts I have.

    1) Firstly, I was wondering about worship and initiation: how effective is prayer without initiation? Can/should ritual prayers be attempted without prior initiation?

    2) Is initiation in Shakta identical with Diksha? And what does it consist of?

    3) How do Westerns approach initiation? I mean: do most Westerns who become interested in following Hinduism just walk into a temple? Is "conversion" in this sense well-accepted within Hinduism? And what if no temple/guru is available? (I guess what I am wondering about is the practical way in which those of you not born into the Hindu tradition have adopted the religion...)

    4) Lastly, if anyone has any books/sites on Shakta which they think might be useful for someone new to the subject, it would be great if you could mention them.

    I wouldn't like to give the impression here that I'm here looking for an expedite way to 'convert' to Hinduism; I am however genuinly considering the possibilities of Bhakta. I have posted my questions in this section of the forum because it is Shakta in particular I have been wondering about; I guess that most of these questions might equally apply to the other branches of Hinduism. Also - and I mean no offence whatsoever - I would rather not hear about ISCKON here, as I am already somewhat familiar with the organisation, and I think - partly because it is so well established in the Western world - that it constitutes a different case (in terms of initiation etc.) from 'mainstream' Hinduism.

    I realise my questions might sound tedious, but perhaps they might trigger considerations of use to others apart from myself. Who knows. Anyway, any help will be most welcome.

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    Re: A few questions

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Raven,
    you ask reasonable questions... let me attempt to answer a few and ask others more knowledgable to add/correct/and improve.

    1) Firstly, I was wondering about worship and initiation: how effective is prayer without initiation? Can/should ritual prayers be attempted without prior initiation?
    Worship is from your heart. The Lord is in your heart. No 'offical' initiation on prayer is required, just simplicity.
    When you say initiation - you may be asking for diksha initiation for mantra? is this so? This wold be for spiritual pursuit or sadhana ( from sadh root, meaning going to the goal) and you would be the sadhaka, the practitioner of thids spirtual pursuit.
    2) Is initiation in Shakta identical with Diksha? And what does it consist of?
    Note there are various forms of diskha, that gives sakti or or energy... sakti is 'sak' to be able...and gives siddhi or attainment. What do you wish to occomplpish? what is your intent ( sankalpha)?

    3) How do Westerns approach initiation? I mean: do most Westerns who become interested in following Hinduism just walk into a temple? Is "conversion" in this sense well-accepted within Hinduism? And what if no temple/guru is available? (I guess what I am wondering about is the practical way in which those of you not born into the Hindu tradition have adopted the religion...)

    If you have interest in becoming a follower of Sanatana Dharm, consider some reading ....perhaps the Bhagavd Gita ( the song of the Lord) is a good place to start. Yet visiting a temple and talking with the pundit/sastri is good. Sanatana Dharm welcomes all at their level of development, the ones with a sincere heart. Why so? we are no different from each other; we are all part and pacel of the Whole. A guest is seen as God coming to ones home, what more of a person of a sincere heart visiting a temple?

    Then come to this forum and ask questions to fill your needs...

    4) Lastly, if anyone has any books/sites on Shakta which they think might be useful for someone new to the subject, it would be great if you could mention them.
    Once we understand your desires, there is wonderful knowledge to learn and to advance your experiences...

    I wouldn't like to give the impression here that I'm here looking for an expedite way to 'convert' to Hinduism; I am however genuinly considering the possibilities of Bhakta.
    Bhakta or Bakti ( devotion) from the root bhj , to love worship or revere.
    One can practice bakti yoga. More can be said here, yet ones heart needs a little grooming to have it swell to the the fullness of the Divine. One needs to get in touch with ones SELF as this prepares the field for the blossoming of devotion. Reading the Gita will help you with this, yet meditation ( if you are open to this) grooms the intellect, the heart and the emotions accordingly. You will have questions I am sure, and bring them to this forum.

    Om Hareer vida-dhyaan mama sarva rakshaam

    May Lord Hari protect you from all sides

    pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #3

    Re: A few questions

    Namasté Yajvan, and thank you for your replies. Allow me clarify my position further.

    I am considering Hinduism because as many Westeners in pursuit of honest spiritual self-development I cannot relate to Christianity (for a number of reasons). Over the years, the study of the pre-Christian past of Europe has led me to embrace a series of beliefs (although 'outlook' would be a more appropriate term to use) which are, as far as I understand, fully compatible - if not identical to - Sanatana Dharma. It would be complex to discuss this in detail, but let me say that having first approached the Vedas and Vedanta (including the Bhagavad-gita) I have been struck by the similarities between what these Scriptures explained and what certain Classical authors (particularly the Neoplatonists) described.

    Over the years, I have attempted to translate the outlook I acquired on a spiritual plane by means of prayer. In practical terms, for me this means contemplating the divine forms known to us from Antiquity (i.e. the Gods), and practicing the Roman private rite (ritus privatus), the forms of which are generally known to us, and which follows a sacred calendar (Kalendarium) preserved intact to this day. Moreover, the ritus privatus requires no initiation (and according to Cicero, it can never be abolished: sacra privata perpetua manento). I realise this might sound odd to you, but I assure you I am not alone in practicing these rites and that moreover there is nothing particularly esoteric about them.

    Now, bearing in mind that to this day I continue to pray in this fashion, the reason I have recently been wondering about Bhakti is twofold: 1) I feel Bhakti (roughly meaning, as far as I understand, "loving" religious devotion, mostly directed towards one deity or aspect of Brahman) might be a form of worship more suited to the times and to my own character; 2) I might benefit from initiation and spiritual guidance.

    I am not saying that I feel the "pagan" rites I follow no longer are valid, or that I cannot manifest devotion to a personal form of God by these means; but that the sincere adoption of Hindu practices might help me. It might - I don't know.

    Please let me stress the fact that I am talking in terms of practice because I already feel I can fully identify with the Hindu 'outlook': I don't need to 'convert' in terms of "belief" - I'm already there. Of course, I have much to learn, much to read and much to study (the knowledge of Hindu Dharma is so vast it could hardly be exhausted in one lifespan!). But all this theoretical, theological or metaphysical knowledge does not amount to much if it isn't translated on a 'practical' level (as the Truth can only be grasped by transcending the mind, through experience).

    With regard to meditation, I have recently approached Tantra. Again, I realize there is so much I have to learn here - it's nothing simple. But what I am sure of, is that beside any meditation technique I might explore, because of the way I am, I also need the support of an external worship of personal forms of God. The object of any worship, as far as I am concerned, is both to secure material goods, but also (and most importantly) to purify one's soul. The ultimate goal, of course, would be moksha.

    I hope to have made things a little clearer (and not to have bored you too much! ). Of course, I ought to point out that should a temple be available anywhere near where I am living, I would not hesitate visiting it - but so far, no luck.

    As the Romans used to say,

    valete optime!

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    Re: A few questions

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Chorus View Post
    Namasté Yajvan, and thank you for your replies. Allow me clarify my position further.
    I am considering Hinduism because as many Westeners in pursuit of honest spiritual self-development I cannot relate to Christianity (for a number of reasons). Over the years, the study of the pre-Christian past of Europe has led me to embrace a series of beliefs (although 'outlook' would be a more appropriate term to use) which are, as far as I understand, fully compatible - if not identical to - Sanatana Dharma.
    Now, bearing in mind that to this day I continue to pray in this fashion, the reason I have recently been wondering about Bhakti is twofold: 1) I feel Bhakti (roughly meaning, as far as I understand, "loving" religious devotion, mostly directed towards one deity or aspect of Brahman) might be a form of worship more suited to the times and to my own character;
    2) I might benefit from initiation and spiritual guidance.
    Please let me stress the fact that I am talking in terms of practice because I already feel I can fully identify with the Hindu 'outlook': I
    But all this theoretical, theological or metaphysical knowledge does not amount to much if it isn't translated on a 'practical' level (as the Truth can only be grasped by transcending the mind, through experience).
    With regard to meditation, I have recently approached Tantra.
    The object of any worship, as far as I am concerned, is both to secure material goods, but also (and most importantly) to purify one's soul. The ultimate goal, of course, would be moksha.
    valete optime!
    Namaste Raven,
    you speak as do the wise... note that truth (satyam) is the truth when found. If you 'see' this in your existing practice and can find parallels in Sanatana Dharma, that is wonderful.
    What is key, is your point on transcending.... most important. As the Turyia consciousness, or pure consciousness, is beyond the thinking mind.
    This, when established, brings one to the height and quaility for bhakti to really blossom... that was my last post point I wished to explain, and you are there in the undersanding. If you choose Tantra as an approach fine, transcending can be done there. For one evolves and comes to this Turyia from many directions. Its the substratum for all consciouness and frankly the foundation of creation. Moksha is the establishment of this turyia.
    That said, spiritual guidence would be good. As there are different types of 'guides'. Guru's, sadhu's, jivinmuki's, etc.
    Who gives you a mantra is of great import
    Diksha guru
    The Diksha guru is one God Realized being who can deliver initiation to the sisya ( student) or Sadhu ( seeker).
    Diksha's word construction is "da" or to give + "ksi" or to destroy . Obviously , to destroy ignorance of not knowing SELF.
    The verb base is "diks" "to consecrate , coming from "daks" or to grow or increase.
    Rtvic guru
    This guru is subordinate to the Diksha guru - and the person can initiate on behalf of the Diksha Guru ( kinda like a TM teacher).
    Siksha guru
    Siksha or "instruction" guru, teaches various categories of knowledge:
    Para-vidya or higher/greater understanding - the Ved, the difference between self and SELF, between matter and spirit;
    Maharshi and a Brahmarishi fall into this class, as highly evolved Pundits and gurus.

    The question is are you in the proximity for this to occur? This would be a blessing for you to find the guru. Really , your desire is the start. It initiates the process. Its said, the SELF reveals itSELF to itSELF, and we think we really are the authors!
    Going to the temple will allow you to express your bhakti if you choose. Yet, there is no-thing HE is not. Different techniques can help develop this vision, hense the reason of meditation. It allows the unfoldment of clear vision to occur, yet is a catalist for this. Tantra meditation will work, as in the final analysis, purification happens for clear vision to occur

    Its of great interest and delight to me that Tara ( from "tr" or to cross), a Tantric shaki Goddess is associated with Omkara, as her bija sound is Pranava too - Aum.

    Yet my knowledge is one-legged. I say this for I do not live this fullness i talk of. I read, meditate, and develp myself the best I can for some time now, but I too await for Sanatkumara to remove the knots of ignorance I posses. SO I go to my 'teachers' - the Upanishads, Ved, Gita, agma's, yagya, jappa, etc for learning. I have had guru's in the past, but never a personal realationship that I too am awaiting. This will come.

    Not sure if this helps, but happy to discuss. There are some finer points on this process that gets lost over time and this is the knowledge that a realized being can bring to the sisya. I have been fortunate to have many as my teachers, in person, in book form, lectures, etc. that have improved my understanding and what I believe is most key - a clear vision of the goal. Any road will take to a destination if one is not clear of the goal. For this , I call it 'getting prepared' - as I have been doing for quite some time now. The subtleness of the goal is very profound. This I find amazing, but see a little more day by day.

    More if there is interest....

    Idam brahma, idam kshatram, ime lokah, ime devah, imani bhutani, idam sarvam yad ayam atma.
    "This Source of knowledge; this source of power; all these worlds; all these gods; all these beings; -- All this is just the Self."
    SAGE YAJNAVALKYA , BRIHADARANYAKA UPANISHAD
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: A few questions

    Namaste Yajvan,
    Thank you for the post.

    I hope I am not intruding in your conversation with Raven but I have a few questions of my own.

    What is key, is your point on transcending.... most important. As the Turyia consciousness, or pure consciousness, is beyond the thinking mind.
    This, when established, brings one to the height and quaility for bhakti to really blossom... that was my last post point I wished to explain, and you are there in the undersanding.
    I understand that transcending is the key point from theoretical point of view, however, my personal experience has been that it is most difficult to achieve. How does one transcend over mind? For me at least, it has been easy to read about it in a book and understand it but I have been unsuccessful at meditating even let alone transcending the mind. Your help or suggestions would be most appreciated here.

    And now to my main question, you said that Turyia consciousness brings one to the height and quality of bhakti to really blossom. I fail to understand this point.

    Bhakti is between the man and ishvara, how does turyia bring one to the highest point of bhakti? Of course, my limited understanding of turyia states that it is a state where one realizes that there is no other and so if there is no other then there is no relationship with the lord or ishvara be it shiva or Vishnu. Since one has transcended the state of bhakti in Turyia how can ‘bhakti really blossom’ at this highest point? Please clear my understanding.

    That said, spiritual guidence would be good. As there are different types of 'guides'. Guru's, sadhu's, jivinmuki's, etc.
    Who gives you a mantra is of great import
    Diksha guru
    The Diksha guru is one God Realized being who can deliver initiation to the sisya ( student) or Sadhu ( seeker).
    Diksha's word construction is "da" or to give + "ksi" or to destroy . Obviously , to destroy ignorance of not knowing SELF.
    The verb base is "diks" "to consecrate , coming from "daks" or to grow or increase.
    Rtvic guru
    This guru is subordinate to the Diksha guru - and the person can initiate on behalf of the Diksha Guru ( kinda like a TM teacher).
    Siksha guru
    Siksha or "instruction" guru, teaches various categories of knowledge:
    Para-vidya or higher/greater understanding - the Ved, the difference between self and SELF, between matter and spirit;
    Maharshi and a Brahmarishi fall into this class, as highly evolved Pundits and gurus.
    This is perfect and I humbly add to this list the following:

    Mother
    The first guru, the debt owed to whom, one can never repay, in my opinion.

    More if there is interest....
    Yes!
    satay

  6. #6

    Re: A few questions

    Namastè to you all -

    Yajvan: believe me, I do find your comments of interest; more importantly, I hope what I can learn from any comment here might be useful (I have not joined this forum just to improve my typing skills...).

    To be honest, I feel that lately I have much benefited in exchanging ideas in public forums and (privately) with forum members. It is ironic that internet lends itself to the most absurd extremes (like all tools, I guess...).

    I feel that some internet dialogue, just like some good book, can act as an 'upaguru' (I hope the term is correct), guiding me a little further, if only a few centimetres along a hundred-km road... In this sense, I'd say good reading and conversation can also act as what you define as 'Siksha guru' (although I'm not much familiar with Sanksrit, and wouldn't like to be abusing the term...). As for a 'real-life' guru, I'm not going to worry too much: I have always been told that such guru is falways found when the time has come to meet him.

    In the meanwhile, I try to focus on these readings. Lately, on Osho - which I considered a New Age scam prior to actually reading any of his books. I have now come greately to appreciate the guy. Through Osho's comment on the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, I have also approached meditation - although I have momentarily stopped practicing it after a bad experience I had just a few days ago. Actually, let me briefly explain this - if that's ok. Perhaps, being more experienced than I am, you might offer some advice.

    Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.

    This leads me back to where I started from: Bhakti. Prayer has always been important to me (as a 'pagan'), and now I understand one of the reasons: prayer helps strengthen my awareness, which is a prerequisite for meditation. So the two (prayer and meditation) go hand in hand as 'tools' towards the ultimate goal of henosis/unio mystica (i.e. moksha/turya consciousness) - which of course is achieved through many, many stages (all of which are a miracle in themselves). So, by enquiring about Bhakti, I am really enquiring about possible ways of worshipping a personal form of Brahman with a progression in mind. I think I have understood what religion is for, now I would like to find the best way to make it 'work' for me.

    Of course, I would like to read any replies to the interesting theoretical points raised by satay. Unfortunately, I am not qualified to answer them myself (basically: )

    Valete!

  7. #7

    Re: A few questions

    (Regarding the issue of gurus, a useful quote from Osho...)

    "Do you feel hlpless? No one feels helpless. No one feels helpless! Everyone knows, 'I can do. If I want, I can do. It is because I do not want to that I am not doing.' Everyone thinks that if they wish, if the will, they will do. They think, 'The moment I will it, I will do it. the only reason I am not doing it is because I am not willing it just now.'

    But no one feels helpless. If someone says that through tht egrace fo teh master it can happen, you think you are ready just this very moment. If it is a question of doing something, you say you can do it whenever you want, but if it is a question of grace you say, 'Okay! If it can be received from someone, i can receive it this very moment.'

    You are not helpless, you are just lazy, and there is a great difference. In laziness no grace can be received - only in helplessness. And helplessness is not part of laziness. Helplessness comes only to those who first make every effort to reach, to penetrate, to do. When you have done everything and nothing happens, you feel helpless. Only then can you surrender to someone. Then your surrendering will become a technique.

    (...)

    So do not think of a master as one who can give you grace. Think of becoming a helpless disciples - totally surrendered, in love. the master will come to you. When the disciple is ready, the master always comes. It is not a question of physical presence; when you are ready, from an unknown dimension of love, grace happens. But do not think about grace as an escape. (...) Try these techniques, and try honestly. If you are a failure, then that very failure will become your surrender. That is the ultimate technique."
    Last edited by Raven Chorus; 05 December 2006 at 04:54 PM.

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    Re: A few questions

    namaste Raven,

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Chorus View Post
    Lately, on Osho - which I considered a New Age scam prior to actually reading any of his books. I have now come greately to appreciate the guy. Through Osho's comment on the Vigyan Bhairav Tantra, I have also approached meditation -
    You echo my words re OSHO. His lectures are amazing. To those who like to bad mouth Osho, I request that you pick up a copy of any of his books. Any book has the power to get you hooked to him wanting for more. Some of his books are also available online.

    Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.
    I wait for other more knowledgable members to comment on this. I do not think that you should stop. In fact, you should find out what Osho says about this feeling...I remember reading something about it, however, can't remember exactly where and what.

    The uncomfortable feeling is normal as the mind has been running like a crazy mad house for centuries. A split second of calmness will and should result in this type of feeling, though I have never experienced it myself probably because my mind never becomes blank no matter what I try. Probably, I am trying too hard...and should 'let go' as OSHO would instruct.


    This leads me back to where I started from: Bhakti. Prayer has always been important to me (as a 'pagan'), and now I understand one of the reasons: prayer helps strengthen my awareness, which is a prerequisite for meditation. So the two (prayer and meditation) go hand in hand as 'tools' towards the ultimate goal of henosis/unio mystica (i.e. moksha/turya consciousness) - which of course is achieved through many, many stages (all of which are a miracle in themselves). So, by enquiring about Bhakti, I am really enquiring about possible ways of worshipping a personal form of Brahman with a progression in mind. I think I have understood what religion is for, now I would like to find the best way to make it 'work' for me.
    satay

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    Re: A few questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Chorus View Post
    (Regarding the issue of gurus, a useful quote from Osho...)

    "Do you feel hlpless? No one feels helpless. No one feels helpless! Everyone knows, 'I can do. If I want, I can do. It is because I do not want to that I am not doing.' Everyone thinks that if they wish, if the will, they will do. They think, 'The moment I will it, I will do it. the only reason I am not doing it is because I am not willing it just now.'

    But no one feels helpless. If someone says that through tht egrace fo teh master it can happen, you think you are ready just this very moment. If it is a question of doing something, you say you can do it whenever you want, but if it is a question of grace you say, 'Okay! If it can be received from someone, i can receive it this very moment.'

    You are not helpless, you are just lazy, and there is a great difference. In laziness no grace can be received - only in helplessness. And helplessness is not part of laziness. Helplessness comes only to those who first make every effort to reach, to penetrate, to do. When you have done everything and nothing happens, you feel helpless. Only then can you surrender to someone. Then your surrendering will become a technique.

    (...)

    So do not think of a master as one who can give you grace. Think of becoming a helpless disciples - totally surrendered, in love. the master will come to you. When the disciple is ready, the master always comes. It is not a question of physical presence; when you are ready, from an unknown dimension of love, grace happens. But do not think about grace as an escape. (...) Try these techniques, and try honestly. If you are a failure, then that very failure will become your surrender. That is the ultimate technique."
    name of the book please...
    satay

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    Re: A few questions

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Namaste Yajvan,
    Thank you for the post.

    I hope I am not intruding in your conversation with Raven but I have a few questions of my own.
    I understand that transcending is the key point from theoretical point of view, however, my personal experience has been that it is most difficult to achieve. How does one transcend over mind? ...

    And now to my main question, you said that Turyia consciousness brings one to the height and quality of bhakti to really blossom. I fail to understand this point.


    This is perfect and I humbly add to this list the following:

    Mother
    The first guru, the debt owed to whom, one can never repay, in my opinion.
    Namaste satay,
    your questions are most excellent! Undersanding transcending from theory is a good start, and to experience it is very very humble and simple. Think about diving in a swimming pool... all we do is take the right angle and let go, yes? Gravity takes over and we go inward.
    Like that, with meditation, the proper angle is the simple mantra, not complicated, and we let the mind settle down. It does what it does best , graviate to more and more ...that is, silence and inward direction.
    This is why this approach is so simple. Having an instructor to teach this is a good thing. Simple, easy and w/o effort - even in the GIta this is pointed out for the one with the balanced mind and no strain , is the one that can gain this transcendental experince. That is, we withdraw ( transcend) then withdraw from the withdrawal ( come back into activity) Like that, rest and activity, just as the universe does on a grand scale we can do , daily.

    Regarding Turiya and bhakti
    This is a subject this is very rewarding to consider... Why so? when one is established in Turiya , some call cosmic consciousness, Self Realization, one has gone beyond the ego and is established in the SELF. This is Brahman, fullness. One is not filled with ones small self of likes, dislikes, fear, anger, doubt, but can be focused and established in the fullness of being...one pointedness for devotion... Not my will be done but Thy will be done is the orientation at this level of consciousness. This is the glory of Sri Krisna's discussion as we get passed chapters 1-6 and get deeper into the fullness of Being.

    I will talk more on this if there is interest... but the mechanics is being able to have a pure mind, that is outrside of the small ego, to give the fullenss of consciousness to HIM that unfolds in devotion in God Consciousness. Its a very beautiful thing the gita, Upanishads are able to discuss... this is my humble desire to unfold this... but to pretend this is the case or mood making without having the entry of turyia, is justl pretending... more on this if you wish and I will add to this discussion. we will talk of God Consciousness or Bhagavat Chetana. I will post this for our review.

    patu sarvaih svarupair nah sada sarvatra sama-gah
    May the Lord, who is all-pervasive in His various forms, protect us everywhere
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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