A few questions

[satay]

Hari Om
~~~~~


Namaste satay,

namaste yajvan,
Thank you for another informative post. you have given me a lot to digest here so I need to reflect on this.

If possible, let's start a new thread on Bhagvad Chetana in vaishnava forum.

I would like to learn more...my glass is empty and the chains have long been dropped (as instructed by osho) which in itself is madness as I wonder here and there without purpose and focus now without the chains that held me in one place!

ps: don't want to hijack Raven's thread though so when you reach a good point in your discussion with Raven where you both are satisfied to move to another...

[Raven Chorus]

Namast� -

You echo my words re OSHO. His lectures are amazing. To those who like to bad mouth Osho, I request that you pick up a copy of any of his books. Any book has the power to get you hooked to him wanting for more. Some of his books are also available online.

Exactly! (I'm glad to hear that ). I think what a lot of people don't realise is that Osho is not a philosopher or historian, but someone who's teaching is only to awake others to the fullness of Consciousness. This is why Osho can sound 'unorthodox' or downright contradictory: but who cares! What counts is the effect his teaching can have in transforming you..

I do not think that you should stop. In fact, you should find out what Osho says about this feeling...I remember reading something about it, however, can't remember exactly where and what.

So far, I have not found any reference to it, which is why I am concerned. (And of course, please let me know if you have any relevant reference at hand!...) I have found passages in which Osho which explain that it is possible to feel fear when you first free the mind, and that one should (as you say) persevere - but then I wouldn't like to be going in the wrong direction and get hurt.

The uncomfortable feeling is normal as the mind has been running like a crazy mad house for centuries. A split second of calmness will and should result in this type of feeling, though I have never experienced it myself probably because my mind never becomes blank no matter what I try. Probably, I am trying too hard...and should 'let go' as OSHO would instruct.

Yes - what is odd is that I haven't been trying hard at all. In fact, when this occurred, I had been meditating only intermittantly 'for fun'. But then I really felt like doing it and focused.

I think it is most important to focus on techniques without expecting anything, just doing them like you might be doing any simple task.

One thing my negative experience showed me (whatever it may have been which caused it) is that meditation is amazing and powerful. It is truly amazing that just by making my mind blank for a few seconds I could experience such strong changes (even if for the worse!). At least, now I'm more curious to approach the potentialities of meditation (even if, as I say, I wish to be as cautious as possible as not to get 'burned'...)

name of the book please...

The Book of Secrets, p. 257

ps: don't want to hijack Raven's thread though so when you reach a good point in your discussion with Raven where you both are satisfied to move to another...

I'm not sure this thread now has only one purpose. I guess we're discussing related topics connected to the issue of self-realisation. This is not a problem for me, but it really depends on what the policy of the forum is (I realise this is the Shakta section...)

[Shriyash21]

Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.

That probably is an anxiety attack.
This is quite a common experience to meditators when they first start out, and it has to be immediately recongised for what it is, and stopped, because yes, it has the potential to lead to mental illness.
You see, many times it happens that that one might consider to be 'witnessing' or 'awareness', actually is nothing but a form of self-conciousness.
Witnessing, cant be done.
You may not realise it, but you were indeed trying.

Its like this.
Suppose you like to sing in the bath.
And you really dont care if you are good or you suck, who is looking anyway?
Its just you, and so you are just doing your thing, humming your tune,totally relaxed.
Now,
suppose you suddenly realise that somebody is peeping into the keyhole of your bath!!
Somebody is actually looking at you!
What happens?
The whole energy changes, you will be more controlled, it will no loger be natural, you will stop singing, but your non-singing will be contrived.
You have forced yourself not to sing, not to utter anything, because someone is watching!

This is what is hapenning when you say the mind went blank.
Temporarily, for the first time perhaps, you mind realises that somebody is looking.
But, this is not the witness looking, it is one part of the mind, watching another part!
That is the reason for your symptoms of uneasiness, because you are trying to split the mind into two, and if not checked, it will lead to schizophrenia.
Trust me, you wont know the difference, unless under the guidance of an advanced seeker.

You see, when real witnessing happens, you mind will have NO clue, because it is totally a different dimension, the witnessing is from a higher dimension, and it dosent interfere with the mental activity.
Your mind can be totally involved with whatever thought process is going on, yet you will know there is something seperate, and this will be a perfectly relaxed state.

BUT, even this first glimpse of witnessing, needs years of initial preparation!
And you cant desire or expect it to happen, because, desire is the barrier, and it was desire to experience something that was the cause of your symptoms, you were expecting something to happen.

Remeber, you felt exhaustion.
Another classic example of willfull trying.
There is a type of awareness that can be generated thru effort, but that is a false type of awareness, and it will dissapear the moment you stop the effort!
It will vanish instantly.
And it will take up energy in the process, so you feel tired.

Witnessing, true witnessing, will give you energy!
You will never be tired,simply because witnessing connects you to the same energy source that you touch in deep sleep, except you are doing this fully aware.

Anyway,........i would suggest to lay off any type of awareness techniques for now, Bhakti is FANTASTIC!!
And really, if you ask me , Bhakti is the BEST path there is!

[Raven Chorus]

Shriyash21: brilliant reply! I mean it: I can totally understand what you're pointing at. I hadn't quite thought about my experience that way (a part of the mind observing the mind: anxiety, possibly leading to mental problems...), but the way you described it... I can totally relate to. Particularly what you say about expecting a result: the mind is so tricky, that even if I fool myself completely, thinking that I am not expecting any result, in fact I am!

So yeah: I'm not going down that path again. I felt it was 'wrong', and I wouldn't like to loose my wits through meditations (the purpose should rather be the opposite: deep clarity).

And yes: I'm glad you also suggest that Bhakti might be a better option. This is why I began to write in this forum in the first place, to approach Bhakti. (By the way, may I aks what path of Bhakti you follow?) Perhaps, I might also try Vipassana meditation (which someone suggested to me): maybe it's less challenging. Who knows. I also tried some very basic 'concentration' exercises, like focusing on a man-made object (this was actually recommended by Rudolf Steiner, and not with any ultimate transcental goal in mind, but just as an exercise to strengthen oneself.)

I'm glad things are a little clearer for me now.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~~

Namastè to you all -

To be honest, I feel that lately I have much benefited in exchanging ideas in public forums and (privately) with forum members. It is ironic that internet lends itself to the most absurd extremes (like all tools, I guess...).


Basically, I was attempting to focus on the 'third eye'; for me (as I have no idea of what 'third eye' means - other than theoretically) this involved fixing my 'inner gaze' (eyes shut) on an imaginary point between my eyes, and 'witnessing' my thoughts (trying not to identify with them). After some time, what happened was that my mind when blank, and that I started to feel strangely unconfortable, frightened, dizzy and light; my heart started beating furiously (tachycardia). This bad feeling came on and off, but then I gave up: I was exausted. Searching the net, I was lucky to find another person describing exactly the same phenomenon. So it's probably a rather common negative psicological reaction among beginners: according to someone else I spoke to, it means I'm not quite ready for the technique. Hence, I gave up.
Valete!

Namaste Mumukshu ( one desiring moksa)....
This is post one of two... NUmber 2 later today will be on God Consciousness. Knowledge and understanding is key to move forward.
Swami Sivananda says we can restain our breath a thousand times a day, yet to move forward understanding and discriminating ( vivika) is an important tool.

So, lets talk of the 3rd eye and your experience... this point is a energy center ( chakra). Putting ones attention there is fine. it is what one does with the mind at that time is also key. I will not instruct you via this form as it is not my place, but as you venture into this, getting the right sound, the right bija sound ( mantram), it will assist you in your experience.

On the blank mind, is one of transcending the existing level of consciousness. The mind enjoys this and can be groomed over time.
Now,why all the negitive thoughts...? this is the release of stress that happens. The body and mind are tightly coupled...what happens in the mind, happens in the body. Your experience is a stress releaving experience to clear the path of vasanas ( remains and impressions of past actions).

So, the goal is to clear the village of the senses..the nervious system, both physical and subtle levels ( koshas or 5 levels of ones being).

More as the conversation pursues...yet pls consider a bija mantra. If you care for my help, we need to have a conversation by email:
- the right sound/mantra
- coming from the tradition and not me, I do not own these sounds
- your intent (sankaplham)
- having a simple puja or yajya at the local temple, and ask for the
bija mantra from the panditji there, with our recommendation.

I will be sure my email address is posted on the members info ...

[Raven Chorus]

Namasté Yajvan -

I would certainly be glad to consider a bija mantra. I occasionally recite the Gayatri Mantra, but as my desire is to approach Shakta Sadhana, I think I might benefit more from a mantra specifically directed at developing devotion to the Mother.

I have not consciously chosen, on any 'ideological' or philosophical ground, to worship the Goddess (i.e. goddesses), but my heart has long led me in that direction.

Unfortunately, there is no temple I can visit at the moment for worship or guidance, so any further advice on your part would much be appreciated. Let me emphasise, however, that I am no hurry, and that it is not my intention to intrude upon any of you with my 'spiritual issues'!

***

"Devotion frees. Take Ramakrishna... If you look at Ramakrishna you will think that he is just a slave to the goddess Kali, to Mother Kali. He cannot do anything without her permission; he is just like a slave. But no one was more free than him. When he was appointed for the first time as a priest in Dakshineshwar, at the temple, he started behaving strangely. The committee, the trustees gathered, and they said, 'Throw this man out. He is behaving undevotionally.' this happpened because first he would smell a flower and then the flower woud be put at the feet of the goddess. that is against the ritual. A smelled flower cannot be offered to the divine - it has become unpure.
First he would taste the food which was made for the offering, and then he would offer it. And he was the priest so the trustees asked him, 'What are you doing? This cannot be allowed.'
He said, 'Then I will leave this post. I will move out of the temple, but I cannot offer food to my Mother without tasting it. My mother used to taste... whenever she would repare something, she would taste it first and then only would she give it to me. And I cannot offer a flower without smelling it first. So I can go out, and you cannot stop me, you cannot prevent me. I will go on offering it anywhere, because my Mother is everywhere; she is not confined in your temple. So wherever I will be, I will be doing the same thing.'" (taken from Osho, The Book of Secrets p. 273)

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

Namast� Yajvan -

I would certainly be glad to consider a bija mantra. I occasionally recite the Gayatri Mantra, but as my desire is to approach Shakta Sadhana, I think I might benefit more from a mantra specifically directed at developing devotion to the Mother.

Namaste Raven,
Thank you for your note. A few points. Reciting the Gayatri is most auspicious for you and for the family of man. This mantra is excellent and really not entry level, but still a wonderful thing to do.
I mention bija mantras to start off ( Well begun is half done). This grooms the mind, creates clarity and cultures the awareness.
What is also of great import is consistency ( daily practice) , technique, sound , and Ishta chosen that is in line with your goals.

This can be seen from ones Kundali Chakara ( birth chart) and the identificaiton of ones Atmakaraka ( Atman/jiva indicator) as it points to ones Ishta and the suggested mantra... but we start simple, easy, no strain...
My recommendation - take a look at some of the posts on this site to get more of a flavor of the goal. We can then consider a bija if you are open to it that would make sense.

[Raven Chorus]

Namast� Yajvan -

I have taken some time off, and, as you suggested, have read some more posts on the forum. It seems like I am encountering a few difficulties.

Well, the first thing is that I do not have a birth chart, and that I would not know where to get one (I believe it's a pretty complicated affair...)

Secondly (and perhaps most importantly), as far as I understand, the general consensus - which, incidentally, I also found confirmed by Osho - is that no mantras are to be recited unless specifically given by a spiritual master. As I do not have any guru, I would rather not dabble in things I know little about, and which might potentially prove harmful (so no more 'Gayatri Mantra' for me! ).

I guess the best thing then for me to do would be to continue reading, learn to pray better, and to attempt easier meditation techniques...

[satay]

(so no more 'Gayatri Mantra' for me! ).

namste Raven,
My apologies for the intrusion, but this caught my eye. I remember when I was in school in India, we recited the Gayatri Mantra in the morning. The whole school did it among other morning activities before the school started for the day in the common playground area. I can say with confidence that I did not receive this mantra from a guru aside from the fact that we 'received' it from our head teacher.

So, in my opinion even though the rule is that mantra should be received from a guru to gain the full spiritual affect, Gayatri can be recited by anyone.

Please anyone correct me if I am wrong. Also, you can search for sarabhanga's posts on this very topic. I will see if I can find the exact post of his dealing with this matter.

[atanu]

Shriyash21: brilliant reply! I mean it: I can totally understand what you're pointing at. I hadn't quite thought about my experience that way (a part of the mind observing the mind: anxiety, possibly leading to mental problems...), but the way you described it... I can totally relate to. Particularly what you say about expecting a result: the mind is so tricky, that even if I fool myself completely, thinking that I am not expecting any result, in fact I am!

So yeah: I'm not going down that path again. I felt it was 'wrong', and I wouldn't like to loose my wits through meditations (the purpose should rather be the opposite: deep clarity).

And yes: I'm glad you also suggest that Bhakti might be a better option. This is why I began to write in this forum in the first place, to approach Bhakti. (By the way, may I aks what path of Bhakti you follow?) Perhaps, I might also try Vipassana meditation (which someone suggested to me): maybe it's less challenging. Who knows. I also tried some very basic 'concentration' exercises, like focusing on a man-made object (this was actually recommended by Rudolf Steiner, and not with any ultimate transcental goal in mind, but just as an exercise to strengthen oneself.)

I'm glad things are a little clearer for me now.

Namaskar Raven,

Shriyash explained it nicely. I wish to add a few points.

It is known that meditation brings to view aspects that were all the time controlling you viciously. So, one day or other, you have to encounter that squarely. Strength of faith and concentration helps one to keep on the path steadfastly.

What I can see is that you possibly tried meditating without keeping the thought of God central.

It is auspicious to know that God residies at Varanasi (the place between two eyebrows above the root of the nose) and then meditate. When one meditates on God there is no way that any harm can come. In fact all poison churned up during the process will be scooped up and consumed by Him.

When one becomes absolutely supportless (it is difficult to express the situation in words but you have experienced a part of it), the well entrenched thoughts of ego preservation become scary -- somewhat akin to a weightless fall situation or, some say, similar to a death situation.

But at that time one must find oneself.


So, I personally do not think that one should take a reverse gear. But I surely feel that one has the option of Nama Japa and/or Pranayama to first strengthen the steadiness.


Om Namah Shivayya