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Thread: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

  1. #31
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Vannakkam anadi: Would it not be simpler just to provide a link? Either that or provide commentaries on each item that you have just cut and pasted?

    Aum Namasivaya
    Hari bolo
    You can find that on my own forum, but
    it has more mistakes in it than here
    and secondly it would appear like a publicity for my own forum, which it shouldn't be.

    Gaura premanande

  2. #32
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    88

    paripūrṇa-kṛṣṇa-prāpti ei 'premā' haite
    ei premāra vaśa kṛṣṇa — kahe bhāgavate


    Complete acquisition of Krişna - prāpti paripūrṇa kṛṣṇa
    is attained by divine amorous love- ei haite premā
    About this love, which brings Krishna under the control of the devotee - ei premāra kṛṣṇa vaśa
    speaks Bhagvat (Puran) - kahe bhāgavate
    Tika:
    To prove his statement Ramananda Ray quotes Krişna`s words from Şrimad Bhagavatam (10.82.44),
    as He addressed the gopis, after a separation of years,
    in the holy place Samanta Pancaka on the ocassion of a solar eclipse.
    After he met them in a secluded place, He embraced them, smiled and said:

    89
    mayi bhaktir hi bhūtānām amṛtatvāya kalpate
    diṣṭyā yad āsīn mat-sneho bhavatīnāḿ mad-āpanaḥ


    Devotional service for Me certainly qualifies - bhaktiḥ mayi hi kalpate
    all beings for the eternal life - bhūtānām amṛtatvāya
    Fortunately your means to get Me - diṣṭyā yat mat-āpanaḥ
    Is your erotic love for Me - āsīt snehaḥ bhavatīnām mat
    Tika:
    Bhakti (sadhana) without loving relation to Krişna, may give eternal life, but not Krişna.
    The fortune of the gopis is their being enamoured in Krishna.
    Krishna is their life. So Krishna gives Himself to the gopis.
    The devotees who follow the mood of the gopis, and as such practice raganuga sadhana bhakti in their mood, will get this Madana Krishna.

    Sri Narottam Tahkura includes the following atma-dhyana from Sri Gopal Guru’s Archana Paddhati in his Prema-bhakti-candrika:

    sakhinam sangini-rupam atmananam basanamayim
    ajna seva param tattat kripalankar bhusitam


    One should meditate on ones’s atma (actual-self) as being a sangini (a maiden associate) of the sakhis (the girl friends of Radha).
    By carefully following their orders the sadhak shall become decorated with the ornaments of their blessings.

  3. #33

    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    Haribol PrabhuJi,
    praNAm

    Thank You for bringing in the centre-piece (jewel and nectar) of CC (Chaitanya Charitramrut) , conversation between MahAprabhu and Ramanand Ray.

    Just one thing - Shrila PrabhupAd always translated mAdhurya ras and kAntA-prema as conjugal love. Which makes a lot of sense - kAnta or kAntA means spouse. So divine conjugal love is best translation in my opinion. But you have been translating kAntA-prem as divine erotic love everywhere. This can give a misleading picture to casual readers. The relationship and bond between husband and wife is a lot lot more than something physical. The word erotic focuses on the least important for a casual listener.

    Also, in this last post, again your translation for KRushNa's word "sneha" as erotic love, i feel is inappropriate. Svayam BhagavAn has used a beautiful word - sneha. It means a deeply affectionate bond. Sure the bond is of madhur ras. Yet, the words priti and sneha in the scriptures are most pavitra words, have to be carefully protected in my humble opinion so the divine treasure is not taken in a mundane way. PrabhupAd cautioned about this too.

    Let the readers not forget that KRushNa was 8,9,10 and 11 during the Leelas. The ras (mAdhurya in this case) shows the intensity, commitment, and nature of the relationship as a means of surrender - sambandh. MahAprabhu VallabhAcharya (founder of Pushti MArg) says the sAnchAri bhAv has the 5 (or four) ras. Yet there is a sthAyi bhAv acc. to him that is the ultimate one - which is simply the strongest union of AtmA and paramAtmA. Of course that is the Atma-nivedan of the Gopis where mAdhurya culminates.

    I have no intentions of offending an advanced VaishNav like you. Please forgive me if i am saying something wrong and correct me if required.

    However, if you agree with this request, please replace the translation globally with affection for sneha, conjugal love for kAntA-prem, etc.

    your servant
    smaraNam
    Last edited by smaranam; 06 March 2011 at 01:39 PM. Reason: added a note for readers
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  4. #34
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Haribol PrabhuJi,

    Just one thing - Shrila PrabhupAd always translated mAdhurya ras and kAntA-prema as conjugal love. Which makes a lot of sense - kAnta or kAntA means spouse. So divine conjugal love is best translation in my opinion. But you have been translating kAntA-prem as divine erotic love everywhere.
    Dandavat

    These argumentation, based on the translations of the founder of Iskcon, don’t take in consideration that madhurya rasa is of two kinds:
    In svakya bhav a – which is the conjugal love like that of the queens of Dwarka.
    In parakya bhava – which is the erotic (mistress) love of the married (but not with Krishna) young girls of Vrindavan for Krishna.

    The love of the queens of Dwarka is parted between the love for their children and the love for Krishna. The love of the gopis is extramarital, all exclusive, and mad (even if hidden they all are His wives).

    Srimad Bhagavatam10.33.39 states:

    vikrīḍitaḿ vraja-vadhūbhir idaḿ ca viṣṇoḥ
    śraddhānvito 'nuśṛṇuyād atha varṇayed yaḥ
    bhaktiḿ parāḿ bhagavati pratilabhya kāmaḿ
    hṛd-rogam āśv apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ

    Anyone who faithfully hears or describes - yaḥ śraddhā-anvitaḥ anuśṛṇuyāt atha varṇayet
    The pastimes of the (young) married women of this Vraja with Vishnu- vikrīḍitam vraja vadhūbhir idam ca viṣṇoḥ
    Quickly drives away the disease of (material) lust in the heart - aśu apahinoti rogam kāmam hṛt
    (becomes) without delay a self-controlled person - acireṇa dhīraḥ
    And attains Supreme Bhakti for the Supreme Lord - pratilabhya parām bhaktim bhagavati

    Even at the time of the first followers of Sri Caitanya in Vrindavan (the famous six Gosvamis) parakya bhava was hardly accepted by the Vaishnavas.
    And even nowadays the Babajis of Vrindavan, which are most closely to the Vrindavan (not Navadwip) Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, they may pretend they would accepted it, but they don’t do it, and condemn it, in the form of Gopi Bhava, and replace it by manjari bhava, whose main loving mood is intimate servitude, dasya bhava, for Radha, which makes it madhur because the manjaris witness the madhur vilasa keli of Radha Krishna,
    and having empathy with Radha, feel what she feels in those vilasa keli, and even exhibit the same marks of love as Radha.

    Important is to understand that here Ramanada Raya speaks about the erotic love of the gopis, not of the conjugal love of the queens of Dwarka.

    The fact that this erotic divine love is sublime and the most difficult to attain even by Sri Lakshmi, one should understand it from the tenth Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam 10.47.60:

    nāyaḿ śriyo 'ńga u nitānta-rateḥ prasādaḥ
    svar-yoṣitāḿ nalina-gandha-rucāḿ kuto 'nyāḥ
    rāsotsave 'sya bhuja-daṇḍa-gṛhīta-kaṇṭha-
    labdhāśiṣāḿ ya udagād vraja-sundarīṇām

    Oh , not even the goddess of Fortune (the consort of the Supreme Lord Narayan in the spiritual world Vaikuntha) - u na ayam śriyah
    which has a lot of divine love -nitānta-rateh
    and even the women from paradise (heavenly planets of the material world - svar-loka)
    which have the flavor of the lotus flowers -svar-yoşitām nalina-gandha and shine- rucām
    didn’t get the mercy - prasādam that was manifested by This (Krişna) -udagād asya
    in the festival of loving tastes - rāsa-utsave
    (when) His arms embraced the necks- bhuja-danda-grihīta-kantha
    of the lovers of Vrindavan - vraja-vallabhīnām
    what to say about the other (women)? - kuto 'nyām

    In Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.1.31 Nārada Muni displays different types of meditation on the Supreme Lord, which exemplifies the importance of one’s state of mind, attained by one’s way of thinking, feeling and acting (by his speech or else), where the erotic love of the gopis is mentioned in the form of their divine lusty desires for Krishna :

    gopyaḥ kāmād bhayāt kaḿso
    dveṣāc caidyādayo nṛpāḥ
    sambandhād vṛṣṇayaḥ snehād
    yūyaḿ bhaktyā vayaḿ vibho

    The gopis (attained) oh, the Great One (Krishna) out of lusty desires - gopyaḥ vibho kāmāt
    Kaḿsa out of fear, Śiśupāla and other kings out of envy - kaḿsaḥ bhayāt caidya-ādayaḥ nṛpāḥ dveṣāt
    the Vṛṣṇis out of their relations (with Him) - vṛṣṇayaḥ sambandhāt
    you (Pandavas) out of affection - yūyam snehāt
    we by devotional service - vayam bhaktyā

    Dandavat

  5. #35
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Haribol PrabhuJi,

    The word erotic focuses on the least important for a casual listener.
    Dandavat,
    it may be so, but I don't write for such a reader;
    for me the word erotic is very important, when is linked with Krishna and sakhi bhava;
    sakhi bhava - which is not accepted for the Gaudiya Vaishanva Sadhakas even by the Babajis of Vrindavan.
    In Nabadwip is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Also, in this last post, again your translation for KRushNa's word "sneha" as erotic love, i feel is inappropriate. Svayam BhagavAn has used a beautiful word - sneha. It means a deeply affectionate bond. Sure the bond is of madhur ras. Yet, the words priti and sneha in the scriptures are most pavitra words, have to be carefully protected in my humble opinion so the divine treasure is not taken in a mundane way. PrabhupAd cautioned about this too.
    The sneha of the gopis, is erotic love, based on divine (for they are directed to Krishna) lusty desires, see Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.1.31 posted in the previous post.

    Dandavat
    Last edited by anadi; 06 March 2011 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #36
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    I have no intentions of offending an advanced VaishNav like you. Please forgive me if i am saying something wrong and correct me if required.

    However, if you agree with this request, please replace the translation globally with affection for sneha, conjugal love for kAntA-prem, etc.

    your servant
    smaraNam
    Dandavat
    A Vaishnava cannot be offended, but as I am not one, thanks that you care for me (is it a joke, or serious?).
    As for one's advancement, I met some people living in the holy dhama of high rasika knowledge, and still attached to money, family, position and guru syndrom.

    I cannot correct you, you are always right, even if I may present some argument, which is only an excuse for my belif, which might be wrong.

    Dandavat
    Last edited by anadi; 06 March 2011 at 02:42 PM.

  7. #37

    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    It wasn't a joke Prabhu, i did mean that.

    About the bhAv, yes i know what you mean. The jIva's constitutional position is what it is, or rather what KRshNa makes it. It cannot be simply squeezed into a cookie-cutter Manjari bhAv. Square peg round hole, sorry.

    They do indeed condemn the Gopi bhAv all the way till the final end, and that is simply a group choice. That explains all the statements made and labels applied. No wonder. Despite this, i simply love the RupAnuga bhaktas... their servitude and their kirtans.

    Please continue.

    praNAm
    Last edited by smaranam; 07 March 2011 at 08:30 AM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  8. #38
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    90

    kṛṣṇera pratijñā dṛḍha sarva-kāle āche
    ye yaiche bhaje, kṛṣṇa tāre bhaje taiche


    "The firm promise of Lord Kṛṣṇa for all time is that- - pratijñā dṛḍha kṛṣṇera sarva-kāle āche
    the way one worships (Him) - yaiche ye bhaje
    correspondingly Krişna worships that person - taiche kṛṣṇa bhaje tāre

    Tika:
    The idea is that the state or relation one strives for in relation with Krişna, is precisely the state or relation Krişna reciprocates with him.
    This fact is confirmed by Krişna in Bhagavad-gita 4.11, and this verse is further quoted by Ramananda Ray.

    91

    ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham
    mama vartmanuvartante manushyah partha sarvasah
    (Bhagavad-gita 4.11)

    The way one worships me - yatha ye mam prapadyante
    certainly is the same way I worship him - eva tatha aham bhajami tan
    O son of Partha all people - partha sarvasah manushyah
    follow my ways - anuvartante mama vartma

    92

    ei 'preme'ra anurūpa nā pāre bhajite
    ataeva 'ṛṇī' haya — kahe bhāgavate


    Bhagavat (Puran) says that - bhāgavate kahe
    (the Supreme Lord) is not capable to worship (to reciprocate in the same way) -nā pāre bhajite
    that (erotic) love (of the gopis) - ei premera
    as such (the Supreme Lord) is in debt (to the gopis) - ataeva haya ṛṇī

    Tika:
    In other words there is nothing higher than the love of the gopis, as long as Krishna considers that He is not capable to repay it (by givinig something better). One aspect of that love is the fact that the gopis, although very week and dependable of others, sacrifice their existence to meet Krishna. In this connection Krişna says to the gopis (Bhagavat Puran 10.32.22, quoted by Ramananda Ray in the next verse):

    93

    na pāraye 'haḿ niravadya-saḿyujāḿ
    sva-sādhu-kṛtyaḿ vibudhāyuṣāpi vaḥ


    I am not capable (to repay you) not even in a life like that of the demigods - na pāraye aham api vibudha-āyuṣā
    you, who worship Me - vaḥ yāḥ mā abhajan
    by your pious activities - sva kṛtyam sādhu
    lacking any duplicity - niravadya-saḿyujām
    cutting off (instantly) the chain of family life, which is difficult (to be cut) - saḿvṛścya geha-śṛńkhalāḥ tat durjara
    May your own pious activities be your pay - sādhunā vaḥ pratiyātu

    Tika:
    The loving activities of the gopis are so high, that nothing else can be more satisfactory.
    So there is nothing higher that Krişna would be able to give, so that it can count as a reward.

    The bhajan (worship) of the gopis is their own amorous love for Krişna.

  9. #39
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    94
    yadyapi kṛṣṇa-saundarya mādhuryera dhurya
    vraja devīra sańge tāńra bāḍaye mādhurya


    Although the beauty of Krişna is the supreme sweetness- yadyapi saundarya kṛṣṇa dhurya mādhuryera
    the association with the goddesses of Vraja (makes) His sweetness to increase - sańge devīra vraja mādhurya tāńra bāḍaye

    Tika:
    Beauty is the highest truth. And the highest Beauty shines in the middle of the gopis.

    95
    tatrātiśuśubhe tābhir bhagavān devakī-sutaḥ
    madhye maṇīnāḿ haimānāḿ mahā-marakato yathā


    At that place the Supreme Lord, the son of Devaki - tatra bhagavān sutaḥ devakī
    (became) most beautiful because of them (the gopis of Vraja) ati-śuśubhe tābhiḥ
    like the precious stone Marakata - yathā mahā-marakataḥ
    in the middle of the golden precious stones (the goddesses of Vraja)- madhye maṇīnām haimānām

    96
    prabhu kahe ei 'sādhyāvadhi' suniścaya
    kṛpā kari' kaha yadi āge kichu haya


    The Lord replied: This is certainly the limit of perfection - prabhu kahe ei su niścaya avadhi sādhya
    But (still) if there is something (more) - yadi kichu haya
    be merciful and talk further - kṛpā kari kaha āge

  10. #40
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    Re: Gaudiya Vaishnava Dharma - The goal of life

    97

    rāya kahe, — ihāra āge puche hena jane
    eta-dina nāhi jāni, āchaye bhuvane


    Ramananda Raya replied: until this day I did not know- raya kahe eta-dina nahi jani
    that in this world there is such a person - achaye bhuvane hena jane
    (who can) ask beyond this point - puche age ihara

    98

    ińhāra madhye rādhāra prema — 'sādhya-śiromaṇi'
    yāńhāra mahimā sarva-śāstrete vākhāni


    Among these (love of the gopis), Radha’s love - madhye inhara radhara prema
    is the crown jewel (of all) gaols (of life) - siromani sadhya
    whose greatness is described in all scriptures - yanhara mahima vakhani sarva-sastrete

    Tika:
    The servants of Radha- the Manjaris – feel the same emotions that Radha experiences, during keli vilas with Krishna, because of their empathy with Her.
    And although they live the same experiences as Radha, still because of their loyalty to Her, they don’t dare to have direct a loving relation with Him.

    Their dominant bhAvA is their servitorship (dasya rasa) to Radha, being primarily Her maid servants, and still Rupa Gosvami writes, the manjaris would be in madhurya rasa (erotic loving relation with Krishna), only because they have the same experiences as Radha, when She has keli vilasa with Krishna.
    They consider that their reward for their serving Radha is to watch Radha-Krishna in their fight of amorous love.

    It must be said that not only the manjaris have the privilege to see their rati-keli, the intimate amorous play of Radha-Krishna, but also the sakhis of Radha.

    Some may accept both moods: that of a nayka and of a manjari, like that of Ananga Manjari, the younger sister of Radha, which has a direct loving relation to Krishna and is also a maid servant of Her sister Radha.
    Ananga Mangeari is Sri Jahnava Thakurani in Krishna lila, the wife of Nityananada Prabhu.

    The Rupanuga Gaudiya Vaişnavas, which now represent the Vrindavan School consider the manjaris existence to be the highest.
    As such the sadhakas are suggested to meditate upon themselves, as being kinkaris (maid servants) of Radha, and in no way as being a sakhi of Radha, which may have a direct loving relation with Krishna, a nayka – heroine of erotic love.

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