One Humble Request Plzzz

[anatman]

This message, because of the personal attacks given in ISKCON books,lectures and also by some of the temple devotees on JagatGuru Shankara Bhagvadpada, his philosophy and his true followers.

Firstly, I in no way am forcing the philosophy of Advaita on ISKCONites in the below views.

Let's start, here you need to understand the history of these philosophers(in brief).

Shankaracharya- Reinstalled Vedic sanathan dharma, as there was a decline in vedic principles and more importance was given to the rituals,
the knowledge part of the vedas was obscured and considered immaterial.

Ramanujacharya- He reintroduced Bhakthi, as the Bhakthi yoga marg started declining and the people were more into the Jnana marg.
This gave rise to mere intellectual discussions with dry heart. Bhakti Yoga is one of the main paths which leads to the purification of the heart and checks the Individual's Ego.

Madhvacharya- Introduced complete duality(Dwaitha), because there were these so-called Advaithic philosophers who were puffed up, egoistic and
took the terms "Aham Brahmasmi" and "Tat tvam asi" literally and were posing as Gods superfically [Just like the self-styled gurus who took over ISKCON(not all the branches, only some)after the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, they misled and took advantage of the real sincere seekers for their own personal gain.]

When I read the personal attacks on Shankara and his followers by ISKCONites, I feel dissapointed.

These are serious accusations, terming them as Mayavadis/Impersonalists and Rascal Philosophers etc.

When you point a finger towards others, three fingers point back at you. So check on whether you(ISKCONites) are dedicated on the path that you follow, before terming others as false.

Please realize that the concept of Advaita is a thing to be realized(attained) and isn't a philosophy to be proved true or false based on Logic and Arguments.
Before you term the Advaita philosophy as false, Have you atleast tried understanding the concepts of Advaita?
It is fruitless to point fingers at Advaitists saying their path is wrong, without even following the path of Advaitha and understanding the Advaithic concepts.
Try to understand the concepts of Advaita deeply, only then you realize the beauty of this sublime philosophy.

Why?!! I can even quote some of the statements made by Srila Prabhupada in his books, lectures and conversations which have a core Advaithic concepts. This is not the point.

When you have decided to follow a certain path, it is important to have faith in it. If you are thinking I am the only one who knows the truth, the others are going on the wrong path, this kind of spiritual journey leads to Nowhere and you may think you are progressing, but in actuality
YOU ARE NOT!.

Live and let live: Follow the Spiritual journey which your Guru has guided you to. Let others also follow their own spiritual journey. Each individual is different and he has the right to follow his own spiritual methods. Personal attacks on other philosophers and their philosophies has to be stopped.
Attacks on other philosophers and philosophies not only weakens our Sanathan Dharma, it is also a disgrace to our great vedic religion and customs. Our communal Indian Government also have the intention
to deride Hindu religion.


So all I can request you(ISKCONites) is to concentrate on the path that you have decided to thread. Be more dedicated towards Krishna and the Bhakti marg. Stick to the four regulative principles and chant the Hare Krishna Mahamantra 16 rounds everyday.
When you give out lectures on philosophy, concentrate more on the beauty of Bhakti-marg, and other brilliant scientifically explained Vedic values and thought given out by Srila Prabhupada(MINUS the attack on Shankara's philosophy and his true followers.)

In this way, everything will be in peace.

Thank You.

PS: I know ISKCON's explanation of why Shankaracharya established the Monist Philosophy.
Please go through any of the available authorized Buddhist websites, there is no case that Buddha rejected the Vedas. Most of the terms used by Buddha have their source from Vedas.
(I can delve deeper about this, but I think the message has been put across)

None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Guru of all Adi Shankaracharya.

OM TAT SAT

[Yogkriya]

Priya atmiya Anatman,

Namaskar!

Thank you for the excellent post!
Hope the spirit within this post rings the right notes across the HK camp and peace and mutual love prevails in the true Vedic Sanatana spirit.
Best wishes.

Jai Gurudev!

Yogkriya

[Adhvagat]

I see no problem with confrontation of ideas. I only see a problem with the lack of fruitful outcome in most of them.

I think that what was said was said and Prabhupada had a reason to do it. That's part of his strong impetus and I'm not sure he would have accomplished what he did without it.

I was at new year's eve at an ISKCON temple... I discussed all these topics with several old devotees, had really sensitive, clarifying conversations with them. I was happy when at a class my siksha guru said that the realization of Brahman path is also valid, not just ISKCON's focus.

Sometimes I see an ISKCON devotee (mostly on internet) speaking aggressively about these subjects, but all I can see when I look at this is rajas and I'm sure it won't be long until it falls into tamas and tamas and Krishna consciousness are not very fond of each other.

None in the past, Never in the future, will be born equal to the Greatest Gurus who guided each one of us exactly the way we needed into the Truth.

Om Tat Sat

[Yogkriya]

I

I think that what was said was said and Prabhupada had a reason to do it. That's part of his strong impetus and I'm not sure he would have accomplished what he did without it.

Sure he had a reason to do and say what he did and said.
His reason was to launch and promote his brand - Iskcon.
Its a marketing strategy. I would look at it like that.
Its a different thing that in its base can be
a) fulfilling his Guru's desire,
b) love for Krsna and promoting the ideal of Sri Chaitanya to spread Hari naam all over the world.
But criticizing other schools of Vedic thought to promote own lineage? - I consider this a below belt hit and unacceptable.
And that's where the whole problem lies.

A realized being will never demote another Vedic school of thought to promote his. In fact he has a all round knowledge. When Lord Shri Krishn talks about self realization, relation with God / Himself, he does not put down one or the other ways. He brings out the all round knowledge and gives it to Arjuna. This is Vedic culture. He talks on all branches of knowledge that people really practiced together. Otherwise, it would've been apt for Shri Krishn to tell Arjuna to bring his harmonium and khartals instead. Krishn made Arjun REALIZE the knowledge opening up his Agya chakra.

Coming back to what Srila Prabhupad ji did, when a leader does or says something, he establishes an example for his followers to follow. Unfortunately, this particular trait was not a good one for sure.
In India we say two lovers understand each other. When there are two lovers of God, they understand each other and appreciate.

Again, I'll bring in this simple example: you love your father and I love mine.
We both are filled with love for our parents and do things for them. So you should not put me down because I'm loving my father but not yours in the same way?!

Shri RamaKrishna Paramhans was also a great lover of God, totally intoxicated with God's love. But Prabhupad called him a "fool and rascal" simply because he is not worshipping God in form of Krishna but Kali? Though he also worshipped Krishn).
To promote Iskcon Prabhupad started attacking Hindus and spreading that there is no such religion as Hinduism and its a name given by invading persians (false info.), and its all hodge podge dried up branches of knowledge etc. All this was very unfortunate indeed and I will never stand by it or justify it for anything, no matter how many times he globe trotted. Of course I very much appreciate his work of spreading Krsna bhakti. This is definitely very commendable. Spreading of Krishna consciousness books and knowledge was done by Srila Prabhupad.
But then, this was his focus - spreading awareness about it and bringing people to accept it. There are Vedic disciplines that focus on realization more. Advaita is based more on realization than spreading/marketing etc..
Most Vedic Shaiva and yoga groups are not based on spreading more but realizing more. But if one school spreads more, it should not go about attacking others because it could spread more name.
There are sages who's name is not known to anyone, but they are self realized, have overcome maya, have been living in physical body in God communion for hundreds of years and yet they haven't marketed and advertised their name anywhere. So we see, in today's world of marketing, PR and advertisement that even Gurus make good use of, spiritual advancement does not depend on its advertising success.

Shri Shankaracharya was an outstanding stalwart connected to the divine land of Siddhasram who came to re-establish Vedic Sanatan dharma. Siddhashram has been sending in yogis of highest calibre to society from ages. His sidhis, realized knowledge and works were for the benefit of mankind. Nothing justifies an attack on him or his philosophy.
When a devotee/sadhak understands the Vedic knowledge on the whole, can he develop true humility, respect for all and a wholesome understanding of Vedic Sanatan Dharma. Otherwise, he gets influenced by ego and gets into the competitive mode: my God over your God, my lineage over your lineage etc.

Namaskar.
Om tat sat.

Yogkriya

[Believer]

Another rambling on a lazy cold Sunday .....
---------------------------------------------------------------
-
Anatman, you have touched upon some very interesting topics that bring out passionate responses from both sides.

Whereas it is true that many unkind words were said about various acharyas/gurus/philosophers, and some of the younger over-indoctrinated ISKCONites still repeat those words like parrots on steroids, we must move beyond that. The reason is that we cannot afford to self-destruct by fighting each other. If there is a fight within a family, the differences must be patched up before outsiders start taking advantage of the family split. With all the conversions going on, we have no option but to be inclusive of all Hindus, even the ones who proclaim that they are not Hindus, but derive all their knowledge from the Bhagwad Gita. If some sampradayas are acting like rebellious, dim-witted teenagers, we cannot disown them. Their words might cause us immense pain, both at the personal level and through insults of our revered acharyas/gurus, but we still have to think of them as our own. That is the nature of human relationships, we are different bodies with the same set of indriyas.

We love their kirtans, their devotion and visit their temples, both in India and in other countires. We support them financially and feel a sense of pride when we see them dancing on street corners of the downtown areas of different cities, with their saffron robes flowing in the wind. Why not just confront any devotees talking non-sense, but not holding a grudge against the whole organization?

Yogkriyaji, I understand that for you and for many others, Prabhupad's utterances, when his brand was flying high are painful and have caused deep wounds. I am by no means trying to protect/sell ISKCON, or diminish the impact of damage they did to a whole lot of other sampradayas/gurus. There is no reason for any self realized soul to indulge in that kind of trash talk. But the reality is that it happened, and it happened in the past, and the guilty party has since left this world. All we can do is to very humbly remind their devotees about their folly, should any one of them repeat the same mistake and mouth bad words against other acharyas. We should remind them that they are hurting themselves, they are hurting us Hindus and they are hurting the cause of Vaishvanism. We need to put some sense into the thick heads, whenever we encounter them, but not disown ISKCON. It is a Hindu organization, and it is part of us. We the Hindus, own it. It is not a foreign philosophy/entity being forced on us. It is Hinduism under a different garb and its scriptures/philosophy is our property lock, stock and barrel. Why try to disassociate from our own?
-
Jai ShivaKrishna-Vishnu-Brahma
-

[anatman]

My post had the clear intention of not hurting ISKCON.

It was only to stop them attacking our Jagatguru Shankaracharya, his philosophy, and his true followers.

The Rig-Veda declares: "Truth is one; sages call it various names- Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti." The Upanishads declare that all the paths lead to the same goal, just as cows of variegated colours yield the same white milk.

[Believer]

My post had the clear intention of not hurting ISKCON.

Understood, and it was taken as such.

It was only to stop them (from) attacking our Jagatguru Shankaracharya, his philosophy, and his true followers.

There are two things to consider. Firstly, when somebody heaps curses/abuses at you and you don't accept them, they belong to him. So, I would not be overly sensitive to people who clearly have some malice in them and are under the influence of tamas/rajas-gunas. Secondly, If it does disturb me enough to lose my balance, I would confront the devotee(s) repeating the unflattering/unpleasant accusations and tell them how they are hurting Vaishanavism, Hinduism and are also hurting me personally. A saffron robe doesn't give anyone a license to be mean to other Acharyas.

The Rig-Veda declares: "Truth is one; sages call it various names- Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha Vadanti." The Upanishads declare that all the paths lead to the same goal, just as cows of variegated colours yield the same white milk.

That is news to me. I thought the chocolate milk sold in the stores came from brown cows. Just kidding!

[Yogkriya]

Dear ones,

Namaskar!

Just returned from an old American friend's house who is an old Srila Prabhupad disciple.
He wanted to discuss philosophy. I usually avoid this, since I know who I'm talking with. But it heated up and he ended up abusing "hindus", and generalizing India has these Gurus who are frauds and all... and then he called Shri RamaKrishna Paramhansa as a demon and demoniac.
I asked "why do you say so?" He said cuz Prabhupad said and he must repeat his words like a parrot, repeating his master's words and preaching them to all is Prabhupad's instructions and that includes the abuses too.

So we are happy to not go into that argument alley. The Prabhupad personality is gone. BUT his disciples have a task to preach and tell others as aggressively as Prabhupad abusing them. And to avoid confrontation, one must listen and accept otherwise it is a "vaishnava aparadha".
Calling Shri RamaKrishna Paramhansa is not an aparadha, preaching that Shri Adi Shankaracharya was a false Guru and came to spread false kowledge and cheat the people is not an offense, but contradicting Prabhupad on one point is great Vaishnava Aparadha.

So what's the options?? Stay away from Hare Krsnas? I like Bhakti Yoga. Devotion is great. But why this arrogance? If it was just Prabhupad who offended people and left, it would be one thing. But he left back generation after generations to repeat his offenses back to the generations of followers of other lineages. This is unfortunate.

Nobody wants to hurt Iskcon or HKs as Anatman said. Agree with Believer too. Hinduism is not name given by muslims. Plenty of evidence of its being known before muslims ever came. Its Sanatana Dharma and we respect everyone, since GOD (Governing Order of Divinity) gives through various channels in various ways. No wonder Lord Krishna didn't remain limited to talking on bhakti yoga alone in B.G. So the respect.
Its not that Iskcon and gaudiyas have a monopoly on God/Krsna.

Here's an interesting post from another member :

"Actually, The roots of Gaudiya Vaishnavas are from advaita philosophy. But suddenly they changed their track and took an exact opposite stance. When Caitanya said he was krsna he meant 'Aham Brahmasmi'., Almost all his associates like 'Nityananda, advaitaacharya..etc claimed the same. The other Vaishnava sects rejected them for they don't have authentic lineage and established Sastra. In those days, a philosophical school would be recognized only when it had its own Commentary on Brahma sutras and B-Gita. Their dualistic stupidity started in 17 th century when Baladeva Vidyabhushana joined Madhva-Dualists who helped him in writing Govinda-Bhashya for Brahma-Sutras and gave permission to use Madhva-lineage.

Even their so called Brahma samhita was written by an Advaitin. It was a portion of agama which describes the construction of 'Chakra or Yantra' that is to be placed in temple. It describes the Hexagonal star like diagram. It also describes the positions of various deities in that Yantra but it is no way concerned with inferior or superior status of deities somewhere in the cosmos. But HKs are ignorant of this fact and foolishly speak ill of Great Sri-Chakra yantra as 'Tamasic'. "

The over glorification of personalities stops one from questioning certain things in the later year writings. This glorification turns people into living Gods and you can't question them then.

The opinion of Lord Krishna about Lord Shiva and that of Prabhupad are clearly different. My question to my American Prabhupad disciple was I accept Krishna on Shiva, but you accept Prabhupad on Shiva. I accept the authority of Krishna over Prabhupad. So I'm into Krishna consciousness and you are into Prabhupada consciousness. And there clearly is a difference.

'Believer' has before also tried to bridge in the gaps. I'm happy about that.
Let's see the positive. There is some negative but let's not dwell on the negative and past. And we can keep shut while the HK can spread false offensive information about Shri Shankaracharya, Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa, all Hindus, Lord Shiva, all other "demi"-Gods and so on in the present and the future.
Remember, if you contradict anything, you may commit the most horrible sin of "Vaishnava aparadha". So please be very careful. We just need peace.
If your lineage, faith, Gurus, scriptures anything gets abused by the HKs, do not answer back, do not contradict, otherwise its "offensive". Just accept and be positive.

|| Om Tat Sat ||

Yogkriya

[anatman]

Hello YogKriya and Believer!!

I have a way to deal with them(Hare Krishnas).

I have some very good points which can easily disprove their origin from the Madvacharya sampradaya.

And also there are some Prabhupad-student conversations which are not on par with ISKCON's philosophy.

Since, they attack other philosophers without any knowledge.

We show to them the statements made by Prabhupada which are a contradiction to their own philosophy(so-called philosophy).

This is just to make them realize the folly of their own sect

Here is one example:

ISKCON's philosophy of this world(Jagat): Prabhupada says that this world is Real, but impermanent( ?? ). The world is True. The Material world is not false—but temporary. ( Source from Srimad Bhagvatam, BhagvadGita- As it is, etc)

But, NO!!, this statement is contradicted by Prabhupada himself..
Here's the link to Prabhupad's conversation with a university student.

http://www.vedaveda.com/speak_out/006.html

Prabhupad clearly mentions this world( Jagat) isn't true.
His statement is in line with Shankara's "Brahma satya, Jagat Mithya"

So which Prabhupad should I listen to?

[devotee]

Namaste Anatman, Yogakriya and all,

We can feel happy that at least this forum has been able to accomodate both types of devotees without too much problem, thanks to Satay !

We had heated but fruitful discussions with them (the ISKCONites) in the past and you can see them ( like http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5123 ) in the Advaita sub-forum here.

OM