Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Thread: Death Denial

  1. #1
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Death Denial

    Vannakkam: This is just an open ended question. I have noticed many times over the years that here in the west especially in non-religious, or Christian mindsets, that people tend to deny the existence of death. I attended a Hindu funeral the other day and it seemed eerily similar from some of the comments I heard, such as 'he was too young' for one. Its almost as if people actually believe they may live forever. The only person there besides myself that seemed to have a decent handle on it was the pundit officiating. He made a comment about destiny, and that the moment of death may well be determined at the moment of birth due to one's seed karmas. Now I'm not sure if I agree or not.

    What I really want to know is how deeply infiltrated this lack of faith is in the collective consciousness. I first started thinking about this when an uncle who was very ill for quite a long time died, and the doctors said, "We lost him." Now that's understandable if you don't have any faith in the afterlife or in reincarnation. But if you do, there really should be no problem. Its a simple transition. The aforementioned pundit also mentioned a story of Sri Ramakrishna saying, "I'm not going anywhere, just to another room," regarding his upcoming transition.

    So it boils down to talking the talk but not walking the walk. So I'm wondering how others here have observed this phenomena. Are the Hindus you know able to lay their faith on the line, so to say, or do they scream and grieve and holler about how unfair it all was? In hopes of a better understanding personally, I'd like to hear some opinions.

    Personally, although I'm affected, it is usually in a much more minor way. I had a student aged 9 die of an asthma attack suddenly in my class, and if there ever was a case for ' the 'too young' argument, that was it. But all I could think of at the time is whether or not that soul could escape the worldly grips of the mourning relatives. I've been accused of being cold for my' indifferent' attitude. I've only been to a couple of funerals where the group consciousness really let it go. One was my father's where my brother and I told so many jokes and funny stories about dad that we had the audience laughing as if at a comedy fest. The other was at a cousins where the deceased had written a warming message for all to hear and was read by his son.

    What are funerals like in India?

    Thanks in advance for your upcoming thoughts.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 27 January 2011 at 03:48 PM. Reason: sp

  2. #2
    Join Date
    October 2010
    Location
    New Orleans, LA
    Age
    44
    Posts
    625
    Rep Power
    2262

    Re: Death Denial

    Vannakkam, EM,

    I can't answer the final question of your post, but had a few thoughts on the rest of it.

    Meditation, self-inquiry and examination, within any religion really, are the easiest practices to let slide from one's life, because they're not as insistently urgent as daily practices like eating, bathing, sleeping (all of which produce fairly quick discomfort to the senses if not done regularly), and also because they can be fearful (dredging up worries, bad past experiences, etc.) and not immediately "fun" (like less focused activities, such as outings with friends, TV watching, etc.). Many people of all faiths lead lives "asleep," as our dear NayaSurya has phrased it - working, sleeping, eating and drinking, partying, indefinitely postponing religious observances as "boring" or "too time-consuming."

    A muscle that is never used becomes weak; so it is with "faith," which can be little more than a superficial veneer over an avalanche of unanswered questions, unchallenged fears, and unfulfilled longings, if it is not a regular part of daily existence. Death is not something that most people think about much, and to be confronted with it is to rip away that thin covering and let all of those insidious ills escape.

    A Hindu person likely has a belief in reincarnation that ties into the identity of being Hindu, but may not have thought about it much beyond that. How does it work, and why? What if someone dies violently, or by their own hand? How can we honour a Beloved that takes the young, or the vibrant, or the beautiful, from us, especially if it comes before the long term of life we believe they merited?

    A person who self-examines regularly, will have their own answers for those questions, and likely a strong, close relationship with their chosen Deva that will help sustain their heart and soul through the sadness of their own loss and remind them that the flow of life is eternal and sublime.

    Someone who has never examined these questions, will likely be in the thick of intense confusion and fear, on top of suffering the loss. It can be their weakest moment, the time when they most need the support of faith - and it's not there, because it hasn't been cultivated during their times of former strength. It's similar to the regrettable fact that you can't quickly fix poor health from a hospital bed; the work for a healthy body is done every day, with each choice made. I don't think it's death "denial," so much as being completely overwhelmed by negative emotions and fears when death actually comes.

    In the West people will sometimes say "it's selfish to dwell on grief, because it's a selfish emotion; s/he is with God now," and things of that nature, but most of the time, anyone who doesn't sob openly at death is regarded as "cold." I think your approach to death is from a perspective of strong faith and unselfishness - that you worried about the soul of your student speaks volumes - and it's a shame that such is interpreted as "indifference."

    It's strange that you should ask this question today. I found out a little while ago that a friend of mine, only a few years older than me, has died unexpectedly. After the initial shock of the news, I looked at my shrine and felt a sense of pleasure for her. She was unhappy very often in her life, and whatever karma her young life has worked out, I'm hopeful she won't be unhappy like that again. A year ago I would have been a basketcase.

    Indraneela
    ===
    Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
    Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Death Denial

    Namaste EM,

    The Hindus grieve on death of their relatives. If the dead person was young then it naturally hurts more.

    Hindus know that the death is not the end of the person. BG says, "Vaasaansi jirNani yatha vihaaya ...." (As people shed their old clothes for getting into new ones ... like that this (Jiva)Atman sheds the old bodies and gets a new one" (BG.Chapter-2). So, why this wailing and chest beating ? Should we not celebrate "death" ... the event of getting a new life leaving the old one ?

    Dear EM, we do know many things which are the Truth and are good to follow but how many of us do it ? We know that death is inevitable ... our stay on this plane of existence is too temporary ... then why do we keep stashing money into our banks even more than we would need twice the life time ? Why do we make palacial buildings to "live" in and spend whole life in getting one, if we have not ? Why don't we give to others what is more than we need ? Why do we envy others ? Why do we betray others when anything that we can get is going to be too temporary as compared to the eternity of the Truth ? Forget big talks .... how many people lead a disciplined life in eating, daily physical exercise, avoid harmful things etc. very well knowing how much harm they do by leading an indisciplined life ? We all are dying for short term "excitement"/"satisfaction"/"sense of achievement"/"sense of pride" etc. etc. !!

    This is because of "Maya" which gives us strong .... no, very-very strong attachment to our body-mind entity. The more the attachment, the more the fear of losing what pleases our senses and mind, more the wailing and chest beating over "losing" what is dear to us. This applies to "death" of our relatives/friends/neighbours/acquaintances etc. ... and that results in subsequent grieving over deaths.

    With spiritual advancement, the attachment becomes weaker and weaker ... and you don't feel so much hurt over these phenomena. However, there may be cases when we don't grieve at the death of anyone but are afraid of our own death like nothing else ! This is not due to weakening of attachments ... but due to extreme sefishness & self-centeredness when in the eyes of us "we" only matter !

    ******************************

    The Hindus have a 10-13 days death ceremony.

    Day 1 : There is usual weeping and grieving on death on the day the person dies. Then the relatives take the dead body to the cremation ground to burn it. I will take the case of a father dying and the son (eldest one) has to perform the funeral rites. After death, the body is given a thorough bath and it is covered in new clothes. A stretcher-like structure is made of green bamboos cut fresh for carrying the dead bodies. The dead person is treated like a deity as it goes and joins the ancestors. The relatives/friends/acquaintances come and bow (pranaam) to the dead as a mark of respect. Some incense sticks are lit and flowers offered as is done in front of a deity. Four people (close relatives) lift and carry the dead body towards the cremation ground. The eldest son carries fire taken from home. The people go on throwing flower-petals and coins while proceeding towards the cremation ground and chantig, "Ram Naam Satya hai" (The name of Lord Rama is the Truth). The procession stops at cremation ground which is usually near a river. The son takes bath in the river and changes a new cloth ... half of which serves as "Kafan" (half of which is used to cover the dead body and half is given to the son to wear it by tearing it into two pieces). The body is kept on funeral pyre & lit after paying the taxes to the funeral ground attendent (Dom/chandaal caste). The son puts the pyre on fire after going three rounds around the dead body (carrying a broken pot of full of water on his soulder) and some pooja being done by the priest.

    After burning the dead body the ash/burnt bones are collected in a pot & immersed in the river or kept to be immersed in the Ganges (Kavery in the South). Then all the people accompanying the dead body take bath and have meal. No food is cooked at home on this day. Normally, the food is brought from other relatives's home. However the close relatives will not use frying while cooking and turmeric use will be stopped until the 11th day. All male relatives would stop shaving their beards and hair cut. All worship rituals at home will stop but Bhagwad Gita recital/listening to Garud PuraaNa is done. No meat/eggs will be cooked till the thirteenth day.

    Day 2-6 : The son who burnt the body is called, "Kartaa" & he has to maintain purity in living till the death function is over. He wears a small piece of cloth cut in length taken from the cloth (called Uttariya) that covered the dead body & keeps with him upto 6th day (like a garland in his neck). Whatever he eats or drinks ... offers it first to the departed soul by taking out a small portion out of it first. He sleeps in the same bedroom where the person died or lived (if death occured in a hospital). He takes everything made of milk/fruits and avoids any fried thing or salty things.

    Day 7 : All the relatives go & take ritualistic bath in the river. Before this bath, Kartaa sheds the cloth of the dead given to him & offers the oil and khali(used as soap in villages) to the departed soul as if for taking bath. After this bath, the first pinda daan (offering to the dead) is made helped by a priest (this priest is different and is called the Mahapaatraa. He cannot perform pooja in temples like other priests.).

    Day 8-9 : This again goes like the previous 2-6 days.

    Day 10 : All relatives will shave their beards and head.

    Day-11 : Pinda-daan (offering food to the dead) is performed by Kartaa assisted by the Mahapatra-priest.

    Day-12 : Pinda-daan (last one) is again performed during the daytime. The relatives, friends and other acquaintances are given a good community feast (like on any auspicious occasions but with simplicity).

    On this day the dead leaves the earthly bondage and travels to the Swarga(heaven). All mournings must stop on this ocasion (as one must be happy that the soul is leaving the earthly bondage and going to heaven. also mourning may create a sense of attachment at this moment in the departed soul which is not auspicious) & no more mourning thereafter. Usual cooking like frying & using turmeric at homes starts after this ceremony. In the evening, there will be community feast with relatives and the friends.

    Day-13 : Now the house is considered clean again to be fit for worshiopping the Lord. On this day, the whole house will be cleaned like it is done on any auspicious occasion. The priest (who makes worship in the tempoles) and will perform pooja (SatyanaaraNa katha). There will be "Pagdi ceremony" where the eldest son will be given a pagdi i.e. a turban as a mark of making him the Chief of the house. There will be happy feasting with relatives on this occasion.

    Day-14 : Those who are non-vegetarians make non-vegetarian food & have feast on this day to mark start of meat-eating after completion of the death-ceremony.

    ******************************

    There may be some errors in the above description as I wrote it down from my memory. There are also variations in the rituals from place to place and from community to community though a few basic things do remain the same.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 28 January 2011 at 04:30 AM. Reason: Typo errors
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  4. #4

    Re: Death Denial

    Namaste Eastern Mindji,

    This is something I have thought about as well. I like your point about talking the talk but not walking the walk. Most Hindus who have a decent grasp of their religion understand reincarnation and that death is merely a phase for the soul's inevitable path toward moksha and not something to grieve and be depressed over. Yet, when it comes to actually applying this mindset and worldview in real life, a lot of people fall short.

    I have only experienced two deaths of close ones in my life. The first was my maternal grandmother, and she passed away when I was 11 years old. At that point in my life, I wasn't a particularly devout or practicing Hindu. I cried a bit at the funeral. Most of my aunts and uncles on my mother's side (the sons and daughters of the deceased) were crying. This varied from a few visible tears to heavy weeping, and one of my aunts even fainted. Oddly enough, the only one who wasn't crying was an uncle who was a convert to Christianity, and he was probably the only Christian at the entire funeral. Now it should be noted that the majority of my aunts and uncles at the funeral are non-practicing or semi-practicing Hindus, and not particularly devout in any stretch of the imagination.

    The second death was last year, when my family's pet bird died. My mother was the one who was closest to the bird, and she cried initially. I was pretty close with the bird as well, but I did not cry. At that point I had grown and become much more faithful in Sanatana Dharma. The beliefs of reincarnation and the indestructibility of the soul were strong within me. I also read that Gita verse that Devoteeji cited to comfort me further.

    Ultimately I believe it comes down to how strongly or truly a person believes in reincarnation and the immortality of the soul. I don't think you are cold or indifferent, but you happen to have a very strong and faithful belief in these core Hindu concepts, and I respect that. Again, it is one thing to read and learn about these beliefs and say "Okay, I believe them." But it is another thing to walk the walk and actually live by these beliefs.

    Jai Sri Ram

  5. #5

    Re: Death Denial

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    What I really want to know is how deeply infiltrated this lack of faith is in the collective consciousness.
    As devotee said, theory and practice are two different things. We should not only not grieve on death but be absolutely prepared to meet and greet it. But most people do not understand what they practice and emotions generally do take over. The rituals on and following death have been arranges such that people can still reflect on the next life - but few still do.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Re: Death Denial

    Vannakkam all: Thanks for these replies. At least now I know I am not alone in this thinking. As devotee said, it is truly a world of maya, or anava. I just find it hard to realise that at times, while observing. Thanks Devotee for the detailed funeral description as well. I do know there are slight variances, such as how long you should stay away from temple, etc.

    To illustrate this point of maya/anava even further, the other day I observed a person meeting a friend in a store shopping, and ask, "Are you shopping?" to his friend. I've heard similar statements before and it never fails to flabbergast me. There have been times when the question is at me such as , "Are you cutting the lawn?" My immediate reaction is usually to think of some sarcastic answer such as , "No, I am riding a rollercoaster," but now I have learned to smile and move on.

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 28 January 2011 at 07:09 AM. Reason: addition

  7. #7
    Join Date
    February 2008
    Location
    Green Hill in KY USA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,186
    Rep Power
    2563

    Re: Death Denial

    My children and I talked about this just the other day as news of a distant aquaintance died. I was trying to talk to my oldest children about how I wanted things to be after I die and they became very upset.

    Now, each of them understands that we will come again...but none of them are too happy to embrace my liberation from this place. Because they depend upon me emotionally and often physically. I think I am a good friend, one who listens and also helps them.

    The others around me do not seem to have the same desires as I to leave here. I think it unsettles them to discuss this too much. I suppose I could always write a letter in the event I leave here before they have grown enough to accept this inevitability. Sometimes I do feel that I will not be here so very long and so I do attempt this discussion quite frequently.

    I am doing nothing to instigate such things, but the feeling is very profound. Death, is a friend of mine. For a very long time I watch this being work around me...watched it come for those I lovingly cared for....and over time I did become grateful...and even fond of it.

    It's a specially kind being, which takes one out of suffering and into liberation. It's the farmer come to take the ripe fruit off the vine before it perishes and withers...it is a friend.

    But, I would like to remain here for at least 10-13 more years and when I feel especially worried about this, I do ask this friend for this tiny portion of time to finish this job and nothing more. Though, if he came today I would take his hand...it would be very unfortunate timing.

    When my own mother died after a 12 year battle with breast cancer I cried very hard, I felt she had much unfinished business and this was unfortunate.

    Perhaps this one which had died also had many things unknown E.M.? Things which their family knew would be a hardship in the next lifetime?

    Also, I know I did indulge in tears because her suffering was over...it was a great release of emotions...and pent up worries which we could never share with her during those last years of her life...as it would have only disturbed her more. As one tries not to cry when looking upon a dear one who has been given an untreatable diagnosis....we tried to be brave.

    After a suffering being dies...all of these emotions can finally drain from us....as water through deep caves within our soul...we can finally find some peace.

    My mother needed more time, but it could not be granted...and everyone cried for this. She requested no xtian pastor come, even upon her death. Her funeral turned into a reading of the lifetime of writing she left us in poems and song. Most of it showed such great sadness...it left the whole room in a very bad state. But, it stood as a testament to the reasons why she was who she was...and for this window into her heart, I am grateful.

    For as many beings upon this planet, there are diverse reasons why a family would cry and become upset.

    I have seen many over the span of my career. Each person told their story to me...and each one left and indelible mark upon my heart.

    When the time comes, I hope these ones around me will smile and be happy for me, but I know tears would be inevitable as we have become so very fond of each other...it's only natural to want to keep our precious group together for as much time as we can.

    But, love never dies...and hopefully they will be left with this truth above all else. Hopefully I live long enough to show them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    August 2006
    Age
    72
    Posts
    3,162
    Rep Power
    1915

    Re: Death Denial

    namaste everyone.

    Although Hindus in practice do grieve death, it seems to me that the concept of death as only transmigration is built into the Hindu psyche.

    • The first thought that occurs to a (Tamizh) Hindu towards the target person, when he/she condoles a death--or any misfortune for that matter--is 'pAvam!' Although this term is translated as 'poor man/woman/child' in English, the word actually means pApam--sin/karma, so the Hindu understands that a death or misfortune is according to one's karma.

    • Mourning death by oppAri--wailing, was practised widely in the past, sometimes making one wonder if it was all just for show. Since women are easily moved to tears, in the earlier generations, they grieved death by wailing with profuse tears, beating their chests, forehead and letting their hands fall on the dead body with a thud. There are even oppAri songs sung on such occasions in villages.

    • As against this, death of very old people who have seen life is often perceived as kalyANa sAvu--auspicious death. There is much less wailing and mourning, as people look upon the deceased as more divine than human.

    • The mantras in Hindu death rituals are geared towards the deceased person attaining a good gati--path, in his/her afterlife.
    रत्नाकरधौतपदां हिमालयकिरीटिनीम् ।
    ब्रह्मराजर्षिररत्नाढ्यां वन्दे भारतमातरम् ॥

    To her whose feet are washed by the ocean, who wears the Himalayas as her crown, and is adorned with the gems of rishis and kings, to Mother India, do I bow down in respect.

    --viShNu purANam

  9. #9
    Join Date
    September 2010
    Posts
    1,064
    Rep Power
    1014

    Re: Death Denial

    Hello guys, as silly as it may sound, I was afraid of death these past days. And I now know from experience that a quick death (if not by accident or murder, I presume) is indeed a blessing. A very strong feeling on my heart that I identified as a heart attack (however my mother told me it was not and to just bathe) came to me suddenly two weeks ago, but I later found out it was a premonition for a friend who was going to get murdered some hours past the time of my crisis.

    The pain on my chest seemed to increase and make me weak, all my energies were being drawn out of the coronary chakra, I even had to take out my astrology amulet, it was a burden to wear it on top of my heart. I felt discomfort in my heart everytime, I was really afraid I might have a heart disease of some sort. Attachment made me really afraid to abandon this earth so young, thinking about what I was going to be stopped from achieving, about the grieve of my parents. However, in the very time of the crisis I was just chanting mantras and accepting whatever was to come. Therefore, my conclusion about a quick death being a blessing to the person who leaves.

    So I should add one more layer to the question EM presented... What happens when this death is caused by a murder? Can even people with philosophical and spiritual knowledge transcend the heavy thoughts of anger and non-acceptance?

    I was outright devastated, I had the knowledge, however it was just unable to manifest because my mind was overpowering everything else. I just put my hand on my head and looked down and even If I tried to not feel anger, the inconformity turned into anger. My heart was weak (subtly and grossly) and fever blisters popped all over my mouth (repressed anger). And I wasn't even the immediate family of her, the victim.

    Everything is better now. Agni hotra was done in the temple, everyone chanted the maha-mantra in a sweet rhythm I never heard before. A cycle was closed. And meanwhile in this world I went to the cardiologist and everything is fine.

    Last edited by Adhvagat; 28 January 2011 at 01:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    September 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Age
    70
    Posts
    7,191
    Rep Power
    5038

    Re: Death Denial

    Vannakkam Pietro: To me, it seems logical that the more unprepared one is, the less clarity there would be at the moment of transition. Therefore a murder or sudden car accident would tend to have the disembodied soul in more of a confused state. If, on the contrary, the individual soul drops its body in a state of religious awareness such as being surrounded by family, chanting mantrams, singing soft bhajans etc., it would follow that there would be more clarity as to where one is going. But I have no real experiential backing of this, just my gut and common sense.

    As far as the method of death goes, one can only conclude its a personal karma. Philosophically, to be released of such karmas, (being murdered for example) it would be a boon. Emotionally, on the other hand, it would be more trying, naturally, at least for the survivors. Personally, I pray for a soft and smooth transition, but who knows what destiny or karma may await this soul temporarily inhabiting this bag of bones?

    Aum Namasivaya

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •