Death Denial

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

Thought I would share my feelings on this post, as I remembered it from a while back and circumstances in my personal life have taken such a turn that the topic is very relevant to my thoughts of late. Firstly, I agree with the others on theory and practice of belief in reincarnation. It is one thing to have been raised with this faith, to have read the various scriptures that consistently affirm rebirth, etc. and another thing entirely to have a loved one die suddenly, or whose health takes a sudden turn for the worst. In these times, faith can indeed be hard to maintain. Doubt, like a venomous snake, can begin to raise its ugly head again and plague you with an unending amount of questions. Is this really the end? Will I ever see him/her again? Could the finality of death's nature be true? While these are the thoughts of those with no religion or a weakened faith, yes, I can understand how those less spiritually evolved might quaver in that moment of uncertainty that can come with a sudden death, or worse yet, when their loved ones are made to linger in some terminal illness and the relative/friend must watch them wither away before their very eyes.

Maya is indeed a powerful force that can work itself even into the most devout of hearts at the worst of times. Maybe some of you might remember me saying how my faith wavered a little in early 2010. Incidentally, I had been undergoing a philosophy course in college in which basically ~90% of the material and class were of the materialist/atheistic mindset. This had, I'm sad to say, somewhat of an effect on my spiritual progress. Not quite a setback, but it did make me question my faith in God, and I was still learning my way around the scriptures and the teachings of Sanatana Dharma. Someone close to me had a bad heart attack around that time, almost life-threatening, but it was not yet their time. Despite the sparing of her life, I remember being terribly distraught. Aside from my grandmothers, I had never had anyone that close to me die. It lingered with me for days, and I had even considered writing about it here, but ignored it and hoped to see it through which, through Ganesha's grace, I did.

Almost a year has passed since then, and I can say with great joy that my faith strengthened considerably. My finally being able to meet with the great teacher that was to become my beloved guru also helped me to see beyond that ever-present veil of delusion that pervades the West so much, this "I am the body" mentality that has even the most pious and religiously minded people I know weeping over the dead and the dying. Now it seems once again the heart of my loved one is failing, and I feel it won't be long before she will depart this life for good. And yet, I realise now that through God's mercy, I was given the gift of another year with her, and given the time to grow back in my faith and see once again that death is surely not the end, but only the beginning. The rest of my family, God bless them, have begun to lament again and weep over it, and I am doing my very best to comfort them. I have not cried yet, but I don't doubt that I will shed a few tears (the vestiges of attachment will remain for me in this lifetime, I fear) with them with the time comes to say goodbye.

But, love never dies...and hopefully they will be left with this truth above all else. Hopefully I live long enough to show them.

So true, Nayasurya. Your words remind me of lyrics I once heard: "Life is brief but when it's gone, love goes on and on." Let this be a comfort to us in trying times.

Om namah Shivaya

[Adhvagat]

Sunyata, don't you think that it's possible to cry and understand at the same time?

Emotions and understanding don't work on the same level. Denying our emotions does not equal philosophical clarity. This particular phrase reminds me of this thread: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6767

The only thing that was taken from me (let me use this egoistic view for this particular point) was a pet cat that stayed with me all the time. It served as a great lesson for all of us here home regarding death and how the vital force is not contained within the body. But we all cried, specially me, it was completely intense, I couldn't understand. Deep sadness and the philosophical understanding (at least literal understanding) stood side by side and the beneficial outcome came from the encounter of these two elements.

It also made me see that people suffer because they are egoistic... I questioned myself: If eight years with this being on animal form wasn't enough... How long would it be? 15? 20 years? We suffer because we want more. Just like a child, I observed.

Om Tat Sat

[sunyata07]

Sunyata, don't you think that it's possible to cry and understand at the same time?

Namaste, Pietro. I absolutely agree with you. Maybe you mistook my post in saying that understanding and accepting reincarnation means that one is somehow above such human reactions as sorrow for the loss of a loved one. I have never intimated that to have great spiritual understanding is to be devoid of emotion - far from it. What I'm saying is, when I cry this time around, it will not be while my mind is clouded in fear and doubt of what might be in store for the deceased one's soul. I will know at the back of my mind that this is a shedding of the old bodily sheath, but I will still feel great sadness at seeing them depart from me in this lifetime. Attachment to one's sorrow is what makes the difference, I guess was what I was trying to say.

Yes, your last point was something I was thinking about last night. The topic of euthanasia has come up before in the past when I was talking to some people over the morality of it. Again and again I was struck by how much people keep saying "I don't want to see him suffer" - when I look more closely at the first part of the sentence, I had my doubt as to whether wishing someone a speedy death was truly a benevolent wish on somebody's part, or just a way to make it easier for them to deal with death. It seems like a vaguely selfish wish because they don't want to have to go through the emotional pain of separation. So in some ways, yes, bereavement does indicate moderate attachment to the ego.

Om namah Shivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Sunyata, Pietro et al: One cannot tell from external show what another person is going through on the inside. I remember my grandfather's funeral when my father just had to go for a walk ... off to the bushes just to be by himself for awhile. He also had to do the same to humanely put down family pets that were suffering. It was just his duty, yet as a child, I saw the sadness in his face each time he returned. He couldn't hide it, although he may have thought he did.

The other day at the temple a person mentioned to me "it was such a shock," regarding a recent death. (the same one that initiatied this thread). I thought, 'Was it really?" The man was ill, getting on a bit in years. Was it really all that surprising? Not to me. But it was to my friend, apparently. Either that or she was just being nice. It was hard to tell. Personally, I am no longer surprised. The one thing we did agree on is that as we age, we go o more funerals.

As far as euthanasia goes, certainly I am against it in humans, especially given the technology of pain reduction. Morphine in the right amounts is a godsend. Fasting or 'pulling the plug' is another matter, as its not euthanasia, in my opinion.

I really like the 'in the back of the mind I knew' expression used by Sunyata and others. It is such a great solace for everyone. I often wonder if the expression originated from the fact that that is the location of the pituitary or pineal glands, and the superconscious all knowing mind.

Aum Namasivaya

[Jodhaa]

Namaste all,

I've found this topic late, but it's been on my mind for some reason, so I wanted to comment. Thank you to everyone for your insightful comments.

I have always been uncomfortable with the rituals surrounding death. I don't like funerals or wakes. It's not death itself that upsets me. Whenever I have cried in reaction to a death it has been for the sadness I have seen in other survivors. They're powerful expressions of emotion rub off on me, I suppose. When I experienced the death of my grandmother at the age of 11, I was confused by everyone's reaction. Even thinking as a Christian (which I was at the time) I thought , "But she's in heaven now. Her pain is over. Why is everyone so upset?". When I saw her body in the coffin, I remember my first thought clearly, "She's not there."

I knew that what made my grandmother her, was gone - at least gone from that body. It took me a long time to get over the resentment I felt for having to view her body, because for a very long time it was all I could think of when I thought of her - I had been temporarily robbed of my memories of her while she was alive - which I thought was what was worth celebrating and remembering.

Later, at age 16, a classmate died of cancer. I was not that close to her, but I was on friendly terms with her. My mother was appalled that I didn't want to attend the funeral. I offered to make a piece of art for her family as a show of support instead. ( I understand loss and understand the importance of a supportive community.) My mother had a fit and told me that my gesture wasn't good enough. I think she read my unwillingness to attend as trying to run from grief. But how does one run from grief that one doesn't feel? Am I heartless? Am I emotionally defective?

I think it is still possible to mourn and miss the "personality that was this person" without loosing sight of the fact that the eternal part of them, the atman, is not gone and never will be. I think the part of us that is constrained by our attachment to that person will always illicit grief at their passing. But I think death should also be used to celebrate that person's life - the effect they had on you, and how they've made the world better. I think there is more than one way to cope with death as well. Some of us don't cry. Some of us take the opportunity to reflect on what death means and remember that person as they were in life, rather then thinking of them as a lifeless body in a coffin.


Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading.

Peace!

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam Jodha: I'm quite similar to you, so you're not alone. I've always been mystified at how some people interpreted my reaction as 'cold'. It is such a personal thing, and just as we on here should respect other views politely on all the things Hindu, so it should be in the nature of grieving. I just happen to have an uncrying 'in-control' type personality. One good thing, I suppose , its that it enabled me to deliver 3 eulogies, including both parents. But I was happy my sister could bawl to her heart's content. Others who are more emotional couldn't have done that. Some people are good navigators. Others get lost in their own house.

Aum namasivaya

[Seeker]

Namaste EM Ji,

I have seen a funeral procession at Tanjore Tamil Nadu , and it proceeded with song and dance. It was a strange sight - people in front of the procession were beating drums and dancing , but at the back , few folks were following with visible tears in the eyes.

I googled and found the following video at youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuBDu...eature=related

and the scenario I saw was very similar.

In the funeral I saw , the corpse belonged to a very old person. My guess is that it wont be a celebratory one for a young person's corpse.