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Thread: Krishna's Real Nature

  1. #1
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    Krishna's Real Nature

    Namaste,

    I am having trouble trying to understand one particular passage of the Gita, whereby Krishna reveals to Arjuna that He is the Lord of the Universe, both immanent and transcendant. I have taken this verse from an English translation, so perhaps this is the reason why my understanding is flawed? I have provided the Sanskrit as well below:

    B.G. 9:4
    mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
    jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
    mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
    na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

    I pervade the entire universe in my unmanifested form,
    All creatures find their existence in Me, but I am not limited by them.

    B.G. 9:5

    na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
    paśya me yogam aiśvaram
    bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
    mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

    Behold my divine mystery! These creatures do not really dwell in Me,
    and though I bring them forth and support them, I am not confined within them.

    What mystery is Krishna speaking of? Why does Krishna say that all things do not really dwell in Him? Does this not contradict the preceding verse? I would appreciate any opinions on this.

    Om namah Shivaya
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become your character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

    ॐ गं गणपतये नमः
    Om Gam Ganapataye namah

    लोकाः समस्ताः सुखिनो भवन्तु ।
    Lokaah SamastaaH Sukhino Bhavantu

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    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

     
    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté sunyata07

    Several of us discussed this in 2009. Take a look and see if this satisfies you. If you wish to pursue it further, I think it is worthy of additional review.

    HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=1125


    praām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #3
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    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    Thanks for the link, Yajvan.

    Namaste.

    Om namah Shivaya
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become your character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

    ॐ गं गणपतये नमः
    Om Gam Ganapataye namah

    लोकाः समस्ताः सुखिनो भवन्तु ।
    Lokaah SamastaaH Sukhino Bhavantu

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    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    Namaste Sunyata,

    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata07 View Post
    B.G. 9:4
    mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
    jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
    mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
    na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ
    The literal meaning of the above verse is :

    By Me, in my unmanifested form, this whole world is (pervaded). All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

    B.G. 9:5

    na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
    paśya me yogam aiśvaram
    bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
    mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

    And yet these beings are not in me. See my mystical prowess that even on being source of all beings and their sustainer, my Self is not in them.

    What mystery is Krishna speaking of? Why does Krishna say that all things do not really dwell in Him? Does this not contradict the preceding verse?
    Yes, Lord Krishna is certainly talking in paradoxical terms. These two verses can be understood correctly only when we understand the nature of Self and the manifested world. The Self of Krishna is Niraakaar Brahman. The JIvaas (beings) are created by Maya ... they have illusory existence only. They don't really exist as they appear to be.

    In the first verse He says that the entire world is pervaded by Him alone i.e. He alone is the essence of all beings/this entire manifested world. However, the essence of this manifseted world is the Fourth state of Self i.e. Nirvishesha Brahman. That is the Self of Krishna, His True Nature. The whole creation (the 1st and 2nd state of Self i.e. Visva and Taijasa) are projected from the fourth but they are only illusory. Let's remember that two states are not simultaneously possible. The Self can be perceived either in Visva or in Turiya but not both. When Turiya shines then Visva, Taijasa and Prajna all disappear.

    So :

    a) The essence of all beings is the Fourth (the fourth state of Brahman). So, that is what Lord Krishna wants to say by the first verse.
    b) However, the Fourth state can be always alone because it shines in its complete glory only when all the three states vanish i.e when all "prapancha" (activities) go silent. That is the end AUM ... the soundless Reality. The sound and the soundless state cannot co-exist. When the Soundless Reality shines then neither of the three states can exist & that is why the 2nd verse from Lord Krishna. If the True Self of Krishna (i.e. the Turiya) shines, all beings disappear & when the being is in existence, the Turiya cannot shine. That is why He says that no beings are "really" in Him (as His true nature is beyond Maya ... when the True nature of Krishna shines in someone, then Maya disappears) and His True Self is not in any being (though He alone is the underlying, invisible, unmanifested Reality).

    Dear Sunyata, I have tried to explain as much I could have done. If it is still not clear, it is because there is nothing by which It can be compared ... there is nothing which we have ever seen or perceived like It ... no, no, ... It is something which we cannot even correctly imagine because It is beyond all mental concepts.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 03 February 2011 at 01:20 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Smile Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    Namaste Sunyata,

    I haven't fully read the Bhagavad Gita, but I too think these verses could be a very good reference to the question of duality and non-duality. When Shri Krishna says "behold my divine mystery", he could be pointing out how although in actuality everything is One and part of Him - the Absolute Brahman, the illusion of duality in our existence makes us feel that we are separate from Him. Also, although all beings are all a part of Brahman, they are not the Parabrahman and therefore they are not synonymous either. The drops are inseparable parts of the ocean, but not the ocean itself.

    That's how I understood it. I'd be grateful if anyone could correct me if I'm wrong; I'm still consider myself a novice in these advanced concepts.

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    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    Thank you for your efforts at explaining this to me, Devotee. I will try to ponder on these words while I reread chapter 9 of B.G. Your point about the different states of consciousness is something I have been thinking about recently after reading Yajvan's thread about one stop enlightenment.

    Would I be wrong in suggesting that the True Nature of the Lord that Krishna speaks of is similar to the concept of Nirguna Brahman (attributeless reality)?

    Thank you again for your help.

    Om namah Shivaya
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become your character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

    ॐ गं गणपतये नमः
    Om Gam Ganapataye namah

    लोकाः समस्ताः सुखिनो भवन्तु ।
    Lokaah SamastaaH Sukhino Bhavantu

  7. #7

    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    It will be useful to follow a simple verse and then equating it to a parallel complicated verse eg...12/7 verse is good to understand more about the above quoted verses 9.4 and 9.5
    Ye chaiva saattvikaa bhaavaa raajasaastaamasaashcha ye;
    Matta eveti taanviddhi na twaham teshu te mayi.
    Whatever being (and objects) that are pure, active and inert, know that they proceed
    from Me. They are in Me, yet I am not in them.
    It is therefore said in gita.....prapadyante....surrender .

  8. #8

    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    I think krishna means that he is our emotion, like shiva is our will. and brahma is our knowledge. they may incarnate from time to time, but their supreme forms always inspire and -control- us in a sense.

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    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    For me....

    We are witnessing here the mystery of the unstruck sound - that in hearing we hear not and that in seeing we see not. Yet Krishna is within all and pervades all - particularly that which is beyond our senses.

    My translation says;

    In Me are all existences contained;
    Not I in them.

    We cannot hold the concept of God captive to our limited vision and finite existence. Quite simple, Krishna explains that he is in everything even when he is Unmanifest.
    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=2603&dateline=1299563544

    Not all those who wander are lost

  10. #10

    Re: Krishna's Real Nature

    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata07 View Post
    B.G. 9:4
    mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ
    jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
    mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni
    na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ

    I pervade the entire universe in my unmanifested form,
    God has His presence over all things. None can escape from God.

    All creatures find their existence in Me,
    Nothing can exist separate from God. They all exist by the will of God. God is the Creator of all. By Him that which is non-existent proceeds into existence. This is not within the power of individual entities themselves, but God alone.

    but I am not limited by them.
    The created is bound by the Creator. Never the other way around. Some might get the impression that God is "stuck" with us. We come back and forth in states of existence. And He appears doomed to act upon us always somehow. But no, He is fully Sovereign. His Will is Independent. And He has Absolute Control. Creation is not restriction which God is bound to. What you must know is that it is His exercise of His Supremacy.

    B.G. 9:5

    na ca mat-sthāni bhūtāni
    paśya me yogam aiśvaram
    bhūta-bhṛn na ca bhūta-stho
    mamātmā bhūta-bhāvanaḥ

    Behold my divine mystery!
    This truth is hard for the created to fully understand.

    These creatures do not really dwell in Me,
    The two of us do not exist on the same level in any way. Least of all being inclusive within the nature/state of existence of God.

    The two are mutually separate and different types of existences.

    and though I bring them forth and support them,
    God mentions His relation. His function. His attributes. He creates and He preserves/supports their existence.

    I am not confined within them.
    Just so you didnt understand what He said. He repeats Himself to make it clear. He is in no way, His existence, included within our Being, our states of existence, our Nature.

    That is why, right before that verse ^ He mentions His attributes. He is the Creator and the Supporter. God can only be that because He is in a certain way. That is you derive your existence from His, never in any way the other way around. He acts upon you as He pleases, and if you and He were the same, nothing would make sense. That is an impossibility. If His nature was included within yours, He would be creating parts of Himself while creating you. His nature is permanent, His nature if full. There is nothing about Himself that He needs to complete.

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