The Idiocy of Hindus - HAF's 'Not Cast in Caste'

[TatTvamAsi]

Hindu American Foundation (HAF) is a popular organization that claims to speak on behalf of Hindus, not just in America, but the entire world!

Their founder, Aseem Shukla, has become somewhat popular recently for his much-publicized 'debate' with that half-wit dolt Deepak Chopra on the roots of Yoga.

I used to have a lot of respect for HAF until very recently. This is because they have just released a report called Hinduism: Not Cast in Caste which ostensibly acts as a self-correcting mechanism within the Hindu ethos to expunge caste-based discrimination (otherwise known as 'casteism') once and for all.

At first glance, such a report may seem innocuous and even valiant to those who pine for the plight of the down-trodden in India (all of whom are automatically judged to be from a "low" caste ), but when looked at more deeply, this so-called scholarly report is little more than half-baked tomfoolery based on tenuous sources and are of highly questionable motives.

Rajiv Malhotra, whom I believe is doing extraordinary work in bringing the anti-Hindu agenda within western academia, Indian media, and elsewhere, to the forefront, has unequivocally lambasted this "report" stating that it is highly dangerous for Hindus, at a time when Hindus [on the world stage] are vulnerable and so easily targeted through various means, to criticize themselves at this juncture.

Here is the link to the 10 basic points of the report [full one has not been published for the public yet]: http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/hind...te-full-report

Here is Rajiv Malhotra's exhaustive rebuttal to the HAF's ignominious 'report': http://hindu-caste-haf.org/articles/...eport-on-caste

There have been many other luminaries in academia and elsewhere who have made in no uncertain terms this reports' irreparable damage to Hindus and the Hindu cause.

When there is so much trash being written about Hinduism, India, and Hindus/Indians by outsiders, what is the necessity for this pious-egotistic 'report'? The HAF has apparently used christian missionaries as sources for this report! Apart from glaring errors and mistakes of this report, Hindus have an inexplicable need to criticize, incriminate, and denigrate themselves. We Hindus will find it difficult to get people to argue for our cause, yet there will be a long line of so-called Hindus who are ready to enumerate the shortcomings of India, Hinduism, and Indians/Hindus.

Why is it that Indian Hindus have this need to "appear" to outsiders that we are morally upstanding and/or "kind" and "benevolent" when our actions speak far louder than any so-called report can? When organizations of other religions write reports, it is almost always about how the followers of their religion are being "persecuted" or are being targeted and in need of assistance etc. And these people are the ones committing untold atrocities across the world through unfair economic principles and trade, violence, and severely biased scholarship.

If a Hindu writes about the positive contributions of Hinduism and Hindus, there will be ten so-called Hindus waiting to rebut his every point and write a book each countering that. With "friends" such as these, we don't need the Abrahamics to attack us at all; we'll do it ourselves while proclaiming our 'secularism' and 'democratic principles' gleefully.

[sm78]

After a long time I agree with you on that. While self criticism is not always bad, but in the present case it was dubious and greatly damaging to Hindu interest with no positive aspect.

I think its another case of corruption which is rabid among Hindus, the HAF executives must have recieved hefty donations from evangelists to publish such a report.

[Sahasranama]

This campaign is useless and will only bring more negative attention towards Hinduism. The campaign for yoga, however lofty, has also brought a lot of negative attention towards Hinduism from the yoga side. This is only because Aseem Shukla didn't know how to make a good case for himself. He was using terms like "Hinduism's copyright of yoga" which has only raised more suspicion. Aseem Shukla is just not the right person to defend Hinduism, we need someone who is intelligent and knowledgeable like Chanakya Pandit. Aseem Shukla is trained as a surgeon, he has his own biases about Hinduism. He is not trained in Hindu thought. A better defence of the Hindu legacy of yoga is something like this: http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/

[MahaHrada]

This campaign is useless and will only bring more negative attention towards Hinduism. The campaign for yoga, however lofty, has also brought a lot of negative attention towards Hinduism from the yoga side. This is only because Aseem Shukla didn't know how to make a good case for himself. He was using terms like "Hinduism's copyright of yoga" which has only raised more suspicion. Aseem Shukla is just not the right person to defend Hinduism, we need someone who is intelligent and knowledgeable like Chanakya Pandit. Aseem Shukla is trained as a surgeon, he has his own biases about Hinduism. He is not trained in Hindu thought. A better defence of the Hindu legacy of yoga is something like this: http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/01/02/yoga-asana-the-hindu-legacy/

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning their history and religion at all, the majority of hindu and muslim intellectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance. Historical facts, like for instance the existence of a proto indo european culture and language or any other truth that is at odds with one or the other fairy tale, makes them feel offended victimized and then foaming at the mouths like any run of the mill mullah.

The article you mentionend is from the viewpoint of the history of Indian religion and philosophy and Hatha Yoga, utter hogwash. I could have commented earlier upon this topic but frankly i have given up any hope to stem the tidal wave of desinformation and half truths.

Rajiv Malhotra, who has had some good ideas in the past, is now entangled in delusional conspiracy theories and feels victimized by all and everybody, probably he snapped since the time he was trying to whitewash his money grabbing criminal Guru , being a disciple of Nithyananda, while he is doing that, with his other hand he is spitefully attacking stalwarts of Hatha Yoga like Iyengar who has done so much to educate people worldwide about hatha yoga.

The vitriolic atacks on western practioners of Yoga he has been broadcasting to other evil minded people, who in turn started attacking hatha yoga, has not at all been benefical to Hinduism.

In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west, it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.
Hatha Yoga became worldwide known and respected , only due to a handfull of people like Iyengar, Shivananda, Krishnamacharya and two or three lesser known people and their dedicated western disciples, that are now attacked by the very same people that always hated Hatha yoga and the "dirty beggars" that practiced it. They despised the Indian practioners back then, when it was rescued almost from oblivion, and now aparently they still hate it. These attacks have been unjustified in the 70ies and they are unjustified now, many westerners have contributed so much to the development of Hatha Yoga. Due to the combined effort of Indian Hatha yogis and western medical practicioners, hatha yoga has become worldwide renowned for its healing powers. Get rid of these raving mullahs please, or they will destroy what is left of hindu culture.

[Sahasranama]

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning theri history and religion at all, the majority hindus and muslim intelectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance. Historical facts like for instance the existence of a proto indo european culture and languageor any other truth that is at odds with one ore the other fairy tale, makes them feel offended victimized and then foaming at the mouths like any run of the mill mullah.

Are you talking about the Aryan Invasion theory?

The article you mentionend is from the viewpoint of the history of Indian religion and philosophy and Hatha Yoga, utter hogwash. I could have commented earlier upon this topic but frankly i have given up any hope to stem the tidal wave of desinformation and half truths.

What of that article do you think is hogwash? The author has analysed older Hindu texts to find mention of yogic postures.

Rajiv Malhotra, who has had some good ideas in the past, is now entangled in delusional conspiracy theories and feels victimized by all and everybody, probably he snapped sincethe time he is trying to whitewash his money grabbing criminal Guru , being a disciple of Nithyananda, while he is doing that he is spitefully attacking stalwarts of Hatha Yoga like Iyengar who has done so much to educate people worldwide about hatha yoga.

The vitriolic atacks on western practioners of Yoga he has been broadcasting to other evil minded people who in turn started attacking hatha yoga, has not at all been benefical to Hinduism.

I can only agree with you on this one.

In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.

Still hatha yoga did develop in Hinduism. I do think we should thank the westerners for taking so much interest in hatha yoga. They have played a large role in reviving the teaching. Maybe similar to the Buddhists who preserved the teachings of meditation.

[sanjaya]

Hmm, I always thought that the HAF was excluded from the mass idiocy. They've always been proactive about defending Hinduism in America, as opposed to the obliviousness of those who are fresh off the boat. And I know that Shukla is trained as a doctor, but let's face it: that's about as Hindu as you can get. I'd be really surprised to see them publishing reports that denigrate Hinduism. I'll have to take some time out today and read their report.

[sm78]

In the 70ies everybody in India hated Hatha yoga and i was mocked for my practice and despised by these very same main stream hindus. People literally spit on Hatha Yogis, because it was only done by "dirty beggars" and is physical only. Now that it is a success in the west, it is all off a sudden part of Hindu culture.
Hatha Yoga became worldwide known and respected , only due to a handfull of people like Iyengar, Shivananda, Krishnamacharya and two or three lesser known people and their dedicated western disciples, that are now attacked by the very same people that always hated Hatha yoga and the "dirty beggars" that practiced it. They despised the Indian practioners back then, when it was rescued almost from oblivion, and now aparently they still hate it. These attacks have been unjustified in the 70ies and they are unjustified now, many westerners have contributed so much to the development of Hatha Yoga. Due to the combined effort of Indian Hatha yogis and western medical practicioners, hatha yoga has become worldwide renowned for its healing powers. Get rid of these raving mullahs please, or they will destroy what is left of hindu culture.

While it is true that hatha yoga has never been given much importance in any of the pan-hindu sects, some sort of asana practice has long been part of hindu traditions, whether for theraputic reasons or balancing exercises to mantra sadhana and kundalini heat. My guru completed his sadhana back in 1930's. His guru back in 1890's. There sampradaya writings shows the practice of hatha yoga as intergral to sadhana, much before it was popularized from 70s.

But traditional hatha yoga centered around a few classical mudras like mahamudra and few asanas. I also don't know if it can be traced back prior to the hatha yoga and tantra, back into yoga sutras. We will never know, what patanjali intended - but basic asana, mudra, bandhas etc are well established both in texts and actual practice much before the current hype which started with Iyengar etc. But yes, perhaves that practice was integrated into normal spiritual dicipline and centered around few mudras as I said, and nothing like present day hatha yoga which has much western influence and contribution.

The persons who ridiculed hatha yoga back in 70's or prior were perhaves neo-ventains, followers of Ramakrishna and such people who didn't have any sampradaya background, but took pride in the pseudo intellectual dabbling as they continue to this day. But I am sure there were ancient/medieval genuine hatha yoga practicing hindu sects who were blissfully unaware of the whole issue.

[sm78]

While buddhist scholars are open minded and educated, and are not at odds with western scholarly findings concerning their history and religion at all, the majority of hindu and muslim intellectuals decide to rather belive in fairy tales and straigthforward lies, and even reject simple historical facts solely to remain in a supremacist xenophobic stance.

This is true, Hindu intellectuals spend far too much time in researching western conspiracy theories and enemies of hinudism in the west, where the actual truth is the India and Hinduism does not matter much to 99% of the western population. Its just a soft target to deflect attention on and this preventing self criticism.

By self-criticism I mean constructive self-criticism like challanging exclusivity of Hindu temples, disinterest of hindu religious leaders in social well being of Hindus, and not like HAF's pamplet distribution to UNHC criticising the caste system.

From whatever angle one analyses, the bottomline is Hindu's have become quite stupid.

[MahaHrada]

Are you talking about the Aryan Invasion theory?

No i am talking of the widespread denial of the existence of P.I.E. culture and language, the common heritage of indian as well as european civilizations.

What of that article do you think is hogwash? The author has analysed older Hindu texts to find mention of yogic postures.

We are talking about Hatha Yoga here not Yoga as such. Hatha Yoga originated not earlier than the 12th century. Only a few sitting postures are taught in older hindu shastras. All other is fairy tales. Even Gorakhnath who is well known to be the founder of Hatha yoga, in his Siddha Siddhanta Paddhati, one of the oldest and most authentic shastras of the Nath sampradaya, (which sampradaya is the origin of Hatha Yoga), mentions only 4-or 5 seated positions. This means that the practice of Asanas as it used in Hatha Yoga is probably even later than Gorakhnaths time. (Gorakhnath lived around 12 century ce)

In the first tantric and agamic shastras (around at the earliest in 100 ce usually dated later) other than a set of simple seated bodily postures, only a few mudras and bandhas are known, meant to move the prana shakti during japa, this cannot be called Hatha yoga which consists of sequences of body postures, combined with corect breathing which grant diverse benefits.

Still hatha yoga did develop in Hinduism. I do think we should thank the westerners for taking so much interest in hatha yoga. They have played a large role in reviving the teaching. Maybe similar to the Buddhists who preserved the teachings of meditation.

Among millions of western practicioners there are virtually none who deny the origin of Hatha yoga in India and its connection with bharata dharma. This is all propaganda and lies.

There are even many who use hindu mantras and prayers in their sessions even if they are not hindus and have only little knowledge of Hindu Dharma.

I don´t know why anyone should want to deny to others to benefit from Hatha Yoga also if they are non Hindus. What is wrong for instance about Yoga against obesity? Many Hindus also suffer form obesity and visit clinics. (instead of learning Yoga)

Is it unspiritual to be healthy and spiritual to be sick?

But instead of being proud that millions of people benefit form Hatha Yoga practice, even learn to respect Hindu deities and prayers, instead of realising that Hindus in turn are benefitting from the improvement of the practice by the addition of western knowledge of anatomy and medicine, some of the hindu leaders start a literal hate campaign against foreign Yogis.

Congratulation on your leadership.With these leaders you do not need enemies.

[MahaHrada]

While it is true that hatha yoga has never been given much importance in any of the pan-hindu sects, some sort of asana practice has long been part of hindu traditions, whether for theraputic reasons or balancing exercises to mantra sadhana and kundalini heat. My guru completed his sadhana back in 1930's. His guru back in 1890's. There sampradaya writings shows the practice of hatha yoga as intergral to sadhana, much before it was popularized from 70s.

But traditional hatha yoga centered around a few classical mudras like mahamudra and few asanas. I also don't know if it can be traced back prior to the hatha yoga and tantra, back into yoga sutras. We will never know, what patanjali intended - but basic asana, mudra, bandhas etc are well established both in texts and actual practice much before the current hype which started with Iyengar etc. But yes, perhaves that practice was integrated into normal spiritual dicipline and centered around few mudras as I said, and nothing like present day hatha yoga which has much western influence and contribution.

The persons who ridiculed hatha yoga back in 70's or prior were perhaves neo-ventains, followers of Ramakrishna and such people who didn't have any sampradaya background, but took pride in the pseudo intellectual dabbling as they continue to this day. But I am sure there were ancient/medieval genuine hatha yoga practicing hindu sects who were blissfully unaware of the whole issue.

Yes, exactly the same misogynists that nowadays march around and smear western hatha yoga have done that in the past.

My early posting and yours have overlapped. Like i said in my other posting, of course there are a few bandhas and mudras and a few seated postures that are earlier. But sequences that are done for hours are a modern invention, and shastras talking about more than a few seated postures and Kriyas are dating at the earliest from the 12th century and originated solely from the Nath sampradaya.

Of course there have been other early sequences of bodily postures in India, done in physical education by kshatriyas and dancers for instance.

But to say Hatha yoga is vedic is utter hogwash, it is not based on upanishads or patanjalis yoga sutras, another medieaveal fairy tale, but on writings like Hatha yoga Pradipika, Goraksa Sataka, gheranda Samhita and other nath shastras, which in turn are partly based on earlier tantras and agamas, regarding the kriyas, bandhas and seated asanas. Where the sequences come from is unknown, but there is a fair chance that meera nanda is correct about tibeto burmese and chinese influences.