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Thread: Just remove the 'human' part

  1. #1
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    Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    There is a key idea in sanātana dharma of na-iti . This na = not and iti in the brāhmaṇas is often equivalent to 'as you know'.
    Hence na-iti is not as you know, not as you perceive. This comes to be known as neti-neti.

    We find this in the bṛhadaraṇyaka upaniṣad ( some write bṛhadaraṇyakopaniṣad ) the mūrta-amūrta brāhmaṇa ( form and formless).
    We also find this in the avadhūta¹ gītā 1.25 :

    tattvamasyādivākyena svātmā hi pratipāditaḥ |
    neti neti śrutirbrūyādanṛtaṁ pāñcabhautikam ||25||

    this says,
    By such great sayings as that thou art ,our own Self is affirmed.
    Of that which is untrue and composed of the five elements - the śruti-s¹ say, not this, not this


    Hence many that are familiar with sanātana dharma come know of this saying neti-neti. So, as one looks around they can say neti-neti -
    I am not this, a tree, a bush, the auto, the mountain. This may be so initially.

    This neti-neti has come to mean renunciation, a moniker for renouncing the world and the sound of the recluse. While this can be applied here,
    the words of na-iti is to inform the seeker that brahman is not what you see, not what you conceive.

    If one looks outside one's self and goes though the process of identifying what things are not brahman , that is all fine and good and perhaps
    can take some amount of time to eliminate all 'things' in the world that is not brahman. But what still remains is the person doing the eliminating!
    Hence this post.


    If we look at the idea of the human being, if we remove the human part, we have Being. It is this pure Being that is brahman.
    If we are to remove the human part, what goes?
    • ego
    • fear, angst
    • likes and dis-likes
    • desires of all shapes and sizes
    • smallness of thinking, boundaries
    • etc.
    Of all these things that 'go' in part, it is the mind (collectively) that can prove to be most stubborn. Why so? because it protects it self .
    It is as if the mind has a mind of its own.

    This mind ( some would say ego component of mind) is quite crafty. It wishes to preserve and protect its existence. It will let you play
    this game of neti-neti but as you get close to this actual insight, in which the mind-ego-individual has to give itself up, then the mind rebels.

    How so? In all different ways... one I have found is the installation of fear. Fear that comes into one's awareness for no apparent reason
    what so ever. Fear creates 'clinging' attachment to the known, which brings the illusion of safety. With this safe feeling, one feels again
    preserved and balanced. A false sense of security from the mind for the mind to survive!

    More to follow...

    praṇām
    words
    • iti - is in this manner , 'thus' ; (in its original signification íti refers to something that has been said or thought , or lays stress on
      what precedes In the śatapatha-brāhmaṇa ti occurs for íti
    • avadhūta - one who has shaken-off from himself worldly feeling and obligation; What is shaken off? Duality.
      This work is ascribed to dattātreya-jī. http://www.nonduality.com/ag.htm
    • śruti - that which has been heard or communicated from the beginning , sacred knowledge; the ved - sacred eternal sounds
      or words as eternally heard by the ṛṣi-s , and differing from smṛ́ti or what is remembered and handed down in writing over the ages.
    Last edited by yajvan; 28 February 2011 at 01:33 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  2. #2
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    I was reading this and mouthed the word "fear". As I approached the word in your post I smiled, as it is such a good topic. Fear is one of the strongest reasons why a being would continue to allow such limitation.

    We have a very large amusement park we go to every Summer numerous times. The first times we went many years ago...the place seemed so very very large...and we became lost many times. We got separated from each other, disoriented...it was alarming.

    So, because of this fear and disorientation we began to come up with coping mechanisms. We stuck to a small area, and constructed a limited area of exploration. Stuck to the path...never deviating.

    Meaning...there were huge places within this amusement park we had never stepped one foot inside. But, over the years....this park has become small to us(As we learn to accept its fullness)...

    We are no longer afraid...no longer become lost or disoriented.

    As a child who on the first day of school becomes overwhelmed, but by the final day of school has seen and done all....we began to feel more confident. We began to be brave.

    And we became brave within this amusement park and have moved through it freely since our acceptance and knowledge of it has blossomed.

    We go everywhere now...have seen everything...and we are not afraid.

    From my limited experience... This is one of the many ways of progression.

    Sometimes it is not the knowledge or some action that is missing...but the fear of progression....and forward movement that impedes the evolution.

    Becoming lost in the breadth and width of such expansive concepts, one may begin to cling to the small bits to find comfort.

    But, again...with time....I have faith that we become confident enough to step beyond that comfort into the light.

    What separates the Beloved Portion whom knows their origin is nothing less than the Beloved Heart of Beloved Himself, from the one who knows their origin is nothing less than the Beloved Heart of Beloved Himself?

    Bravery....overcoming this fear.

    Bravery is fed by fire tempered Faith.

    Faith is a fuel of progress.

    You have to be brave to become the one inside...not cling to those old comforts and secure but limited ways of thinking. Even if you begin to look funny to those around you...as you become still...have faith.

    Beloved Shiva, dissolve this body...this space of comfort and leave nothing but this portion at Your Beloved Feet.

    Hari Om Namah Shivaya
    Last edited by NayaSurya; 28 February 2011 at 03:07 PM.

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    If one looks outside one's self and goes though the process of identifying what things are not brahman, that is all fine and good and perhaps
    can take some amount of time to eliminate all 'things' in the world that is not brahman.
    Yajvan, sorry for the basic question, but how can anything NOT be Brahman?

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté PI,

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    Yajvan, sorry for the basic question, but how can anything NOT be Brahman?
    This is a reasonable question. Lets look at the framing of it. Recall I am saying the following - If one looks outside one's self
    and goes though the process of identifying what things are not brahman ... Looking outside one's self is key here.

    The notion is this - no individual finite thing can be said to be brahman in its fullness, in its identification of It as the all.
    It is by this process that the intellect can go from item-to-item and discount it and say that thing is not brahman . Over time after one
    looks outside, it finally leads one to the inside , to one's own level of Being. This is where fullness can be found and where one can
    experience this fullness of Being.

    Now each thing in the universe ( and outside of it, all things and no-thing) is no doubt brahman. Yet it cannot be captured in a single
    finite thing, but is no doubt part of the whole.

    When one's vision is perfect, then each thing sings the glory of the fullness of brahman, yet prior to this with blemished vision, an item
    is an item, a finite thing.

    It depends on which viewpoint one has. The muni that bathes in the essence of Reality, only sees this fullness, even in a blade of grass;
    yet on the other side , the paśu¹ is lacking this personal and direct experience, even though he/she may be able to articulate this point of view -
    it as yet not living the reality of this truth.

    praṇām


    words
    paśu - teathered animal; 5 kinds are enumerated , men , kine , horses , goats and sheep " to which are sometimes mules are added.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Of all these things that 'go' in part, it is the mind (collectively) that can prove to be most stubborn. Why so? because it protects it self .
    It is as if the mind has a mind of its own.
    This mind ( some would say ego component of mind) is quite crafty. It wishes to preserve and protect its existence. It will let you play

    this game of neti-neti but as you get close to this actual insight, in which the mind-ego-individual has to give itself up, then the mind rebels.


    This mind, it continues to flow in thoughts... so many thoughts every day. Many we are not aware of; some we choose to notice, others not. Like a river incessantly flowing.

    At times one takes a cup and dips it in the river of thoughts. We ( the intellect) inspects the thoughts. Do I act on these thoughts, ponder them or perhaps just pour them back into the river?

    But what is this constant flow? Where does this mind wish to go , to end up? Some say that is what the mind does - it flows. Others say, yes this mind does this, but it has a purpose.

    I have talked to many people who say they cannot sit and meditate because of this constant chatter in the mind - it distracts. It is difficult for them to sit and be still. That means one is constantly engaging in the chatter , no? When one comes to know the nature of this thing we call the mind, we begin to understand some of its behaviors.

    Does any one have a POV on this purpose? Perhaps you are of the opinion there is none?








    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I have talked to many people who say they cannot sit and meditate because of this constant chatter in the mind - it distracts. It is difficult for them to sit and be still. That means one is constantly engaging in the chatter , no? When one comes to know the nature of this thing we call the mind, we begin to understand some of its behaviors.
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    Does any one have a POV on this purpose? Perhaps you are of the opinion there is none?


    For me the keyboard has become some form of meditation.

    Not in a traditional sense but by some crazy luck...my concentration upon the keys causes something to happen. It's just enough stillness inside to cause something much higher to emerge.

    I used to think it was some ghost or spirit trying to speak through me...I couldn't allow myself to even think such wondrous thoughts and songs could come from me. But I finally have begun to understand that by disarming the mind with this simple task...searching out the keys upon the laptop...something wonderful happens. The thing which helps me along is myself...

    The me beyond this tangle of experiences and memories of this transient lifetime. It's is the timeless portion which has found a way to seep out despite this decaying vessel full of distractions. For at the keyboard as my eyes close and I begin to type I see the miracle happen over and over again.

    Once we can begin to separate ourself from the machine/body even a tiny bit...it begins. As one chipping away at a sand castle...it will disentigrate.

    It's as if the curtain slipped open upon the stage of this universe and exposed the Hand of the Master...once seen...it begins to unravel everything we once accepted as reality.


    Perhaps we are given a mind, a body and location which facilitates the burning of our karma. Perhaps we are given the mind and body which compliments our movement forward?

    From the most intelligent being to the disabled. Each one, so perfectly right...as each one is specifically designed to help us move past these lessons to the next.

    I see the mind as perhaps three portions. One is the organic machine, two is the interconnected portions which own the experiences of this life time. Such as a car will contain our belongings until we come to remove them.

    Then the third is the the True Portion. The thing which will pick up these memories one day and depart from the vehicle with joy.

    As you can see, I am a confused portion and I have not gotten this fully put together. So please forgive my feeble attempts to work it out in your presence.<3

    I would love to know what you know about this Yajvan, and all the other Beloved Portions residing here.

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    But what is this constant flow? Where does this mind wish to go , to end up? Some say that is what the mind does - it flows. Others say, yes this mind does this, but it has a purpose.


    Does any one have a POV on this purpose? Perhaps you are of the opinion there is none?
    Namast&#233; Yajvan and all
    The conundrum is that both the question and the answer (or opinion) is of the mind. So the answer depends on the beholder, in that the mind serves a purpose up until it no longer serves a purpose.

    The question may arise: can one operate without thinking, without the mind?

    I once heard it said that if we let the mind 'touch' such questions then we are pulled away and back into mind.

  8. #8

    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Quote Originally Posted by NayaSurya View Post

    For me the keyboard has become some form of meditation.

    Not in a traditional sense but by some crazy luck...my concentration upon the keys causes something to happen. It's just enough stillness inside to cause something much higher to emerge.

    I used to think it was some ghost or spirit trying to speak through me...I couldn't allow myself to even think such wondrous thoughts and songs could come from me. But I finally have begun to understand that by disarming the mind with this simple task...searching out the keys upon the laptop...something wonderful happens. The thing which helps me along is myself...

    The me beyond this tangle of experiences and memories of this transient lifetime. It's is the timeless portion which has found a way to seep out despite this decaying vessel full of distractions. For at the keyboard as my eyes close and I begin to type I see the miracle happen over and over again.

    .....
    I would love to know what you know about this Yajvan, and all the other Beloved Portions residing here.
    The "thing" which helps me all along is my sarvasva, G O V I N D, PArabrahma Parameshwar, Dearmost Witness, Beloved Companion, Divine Guide. As witness He stands in a corner with folded arms and casts His loving eyes without judgement. As Divine Guide He babysits, is the "culprit" behind all those "where did that poem come from ?" and "how did i know that ?" I believe He also steals in and fixes posts sometimes. As Companion Most Beloved... see the VaishNav forum for more if interested ...

    Love,
    smaraNam
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Pranam Yajvan and all

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast



    This mind, it continues to flow in thoughts... so many thoughts every day. Many we are not aware of; some we choose to notice, others not. Like a river incessantly flowing.


    But what is this constant flow? Where does this mind wish to go , to end up? Some say that is what the mind does - it flows. Others say, yes this mind does this, but it has a purpose.








    praṇām
    I don't know about the mind, what independent authority has this mind got, although it is trublesome and can be a friend, does it have a choice to guide me or force me? i don't think so, where would i wish to go or end up you ask?

    yasmin gata na nivartanti bhuyah, Krishna ji advise, from where there in no return.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namast&#233;

    Thank you for your ideas Onkara, Ganeshprasad, Narasurya, smaraNam , some excellent points to consider.

    I have a few notions to offer on this mind - see what you think.

    The chāndogya upaniṣad gives us an example - the mind is like a bird :
    A bird bound to a point by a string; after flying in various directions and finding no place to rest it finally returns to the point
    where it is bound. Likewise , the mind having flown in various directions of interest, finding no place to rest, finally comes back to prāṇa,
    because my dear mind is bound to prāṇa.

    The mind by its nature is drawn here-and-there by the senses. Yet this mind is bent on looking for experiences, one after the other.
    Doesn't care much what the experience is, as it is curious nature. Yet that said, what then is it looking for?

    It is like a bee going from flower to flower in search of nectar, the mind is in seach of more. It is looking for more. More what?
    More anything that that brings expansion. It is looking to alight on something and extract the maximum amount of nectar and move on.

    But herein lies the pickle. As sanatkumāra is instructing nārada, he says, nālpe sukham asti or finite (alpa) things do not (na)
    contain happiness (suka). So, the mind wishing to find more nectar , perhaps for a fleeting moment ( a minite, a day, a week , perhaps a month)
    will not satisfy the mind because it is looking in the finite realm. It continues it search and we experience a restless/waivering mind.
    Yet the taming of manas ( mind) is facilitated via prāṇa.
    Now this prāṇa is also known as vital breath. Yet it is also interesting to note that life force (prāṇa) is also found in food. So, it is via the
    breath and food intake that we influence the mind.

    In yoga & in kaśmir śaivism the movement of the breath is looked at ( identifed) in 3 different ways.
    • prāṇa śakti
    • ātma śakti
    • prabhu śakti
    With prāṇa śakti, the movement of breath takes place automatically - part of the autonomic nervous system. We are breathing
    but do not pay much attention to it. An example would be our breath in sleep - all going on automatically. Or during a conversation
    no one notices the breath, or when being entertained, this prāṇa śakti is on auto pilot.

    With ātma śakti we are managing the breath coming in and going out. We decide how deep, how long to hold the breath, all that.
    Some call this conscious breathing. This method is the basis for many upāyae-s or techniques , found in the āṇavopāya&#185; approach.

    With prabhu śakti the movement is by the grace of the Supreme. The prāṇa enters the madhyā-nādī some call the suṣumnā, the central
    or principle nerve (nādī ).

    praṇām

    words

    • āṇavopāya
      • āṇu अणु = fine , minute , atomic is known as 'atom' - which is another name for the individual jiva.
      • This upāya is the means whereby the āṇu or the individual jiva uses his own kāraṇa-s or instruments i.e. senses, prana and manas for self-realization.
      • It includes disciplines concerning the regulation
        of prana, japa, concentration, meditation, etc.
    Last edited by yajvan; 01 March 2011 at 06:31 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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