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Thread: Just remove the 'human' part

  1. #11
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    neti-neti...thats not..thats not , its practice is like butter wants to come out of milk and separating gradually from rest parts of milk.

    atman practices that he is not universe,not country,not human,not body,not mind,not intellect,not sense ete.. tilll it is nothing but omnipresent,omnipotent atman.

    In jnana marga the sadhna is avyasa and bairagya......which ultimately developes VIVEK. there are 6 types of vivek avyas.

    neti-neti is part of NITYANITYA VIVEKA. atma discriminate anitya from nitya part, that is self.
    Just by sheer will power and very strong thought they are able to realize the self different from maya.

    Mind is the essence of prana.it is the active tool of our 10 pranas,10 sense and intellect. just imagine electricity is mind. when it pass into fan...fan moves.when it pass into heater,it warms.

    same is the case of mind which is always changing form. that is converting into sensual energy,work,into every active aspects of us.when somebody burt us,we become angry.that time mind is anger,fully converted into anger.there is no other thought.

    when mind becomes still......then it is intellect(buddhi). thats why it is told that take a decision. when mind is still.that time most part of energy are inactive and converts into intellect.

    if prana is milk,mind is butter. if we can controll prana,mind is easily controlled.the god of prana is Hanuman.thats why to worship Sriram,we first worship Hanuman.
    prana is the life force energy in every thing - in air,water,food,in everything. so whatever we take into inside of us makes our mind. thats why its important what we eat,drink,where we live,with whom we befriended.
    again pranayam is strong way to control prana.

    jayaguru
    Last edited by anirvan; 02 March 2011 at 01:35 AM. Reason: missed some important part

  2. #12
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Pranam Yajvan and all
     
     
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    hariḥ oṁ
     
     
    Yet the taming of manas ( mind) is facilitated via prāṇa.
    Now this prāṇa is also known as vital breath. Yet it is also interesting to note that life force (prāṇa) is also found in food. So, it is via the
    breath and food intake that we influence the mind.
     
     
    In yoga & in kaśmir śaivism the movement of the breath is looked at ( identifed) in 3 different ways.
    prāṇa śakti
    ātma śakti
    prabhu śakti
    With prāṇa śakti, the movement of breath takes place automatically - part of the autonomic nervous system. We are breathing
    but do not pay much attention to it. An example would be our breath in sleep - all going on automatically. Or during a conversation
    no one notices the breath, or when being entertained, this prāṇa śakti is on auto pilot.
     
     
    With ātma śakti we are managing the breath coming in and going out. We decide how deep, how long to hold the breath, all that.
    Some call this conscious breathing. This method is the basis for many upāyae-s or techniques , found in the āṇavopāya approach.
     
     
    With prabhu śakti the movement is by the grace of the Supreme. The prāṇa enters the madhyā-nādī some call the suṣumnā, the central
    or principle nerve (nādī ).
     
     
    praṇam
     
     
    words
     
    āṇavopāya
    āṇu अणु = fine , minute , atomic is known as 'atom' - which is another name for the individual jiva.
    This upāya is the means whereby the āṇu or the individual jiva uses his own kāraṇa-s or instruments i.e. senses, prana and manas for self-realization.
    It includes disciplines concerning the regulation
    of prana, japa, concentration, meditation, etc.
     

    What you offer is off great value,
    Taming of mind, you speak three different sakti which we can expand on it later, what is the position off mind vis the body and the individual self.

    Why do mind have such a sway after all it is Jada.
     
     
    Katha Upanishad gives example off a chariot, and the charioteer and how the mind is controlled.

    Katha UP
    9. 'But he who has understanding for his charioteer, and who holds the reins of the mind, he reaches the end of his journey, and that is the highest place of Vishnu.'
    10. 'Beyond the senses there are the objects, beyond the objects there is the mind, beyond the mind there is the intellect, the Great Self is beyond the intellect.'

    Bhagvat Gita 3.42 offers the similar as above, so it is quite clear the mind although very strong, taming it, is done via budhi holding the rains.
     
     
    How important is the taming of mind?

    from Bhagvat Gita6.6
     
     
    bandhur atmatmanas tasya
    yenatmaivatmana jitah
    anatmanas tu satrutve
    vartetatmaiva satru-vat
     
    For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his very mind will be the greatest enemy.
     
     
    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  3. #13
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté Ganeshprasad,


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post
    How important is the taming of mind?
    I think it is worthy of merit. It is by the mind that distractions come-and-go. It is the mind the pulls one here and there via desires.
    It is the mind that thinks, I will pursue more, perhaps with more I will feel full, I will find the Supreme in the acquisition of more.
    The mind will argue with you and not care about a conclusion - this allows it to keep on going. It does not care much if you chase your
    tail and go over the same idea, the same condition again and again, it does not care.

    Yet this is the issue - no matter what the mind acquires there is not enough to satisfy its thirst. Finding one's Being is not by adding
    but by subtracting what one is not, hence na-iti is not as you know, not as you perceive.

    What are you not? Big, small, likes, dislikes , fear, anger, etc. - all these things reside in the mind say the wise. So it is removing,
    not adding , is the approach. Just as sculptor takes away all the stone that is not the final statue, one can pursue their true Being.

    Now, some see this mind as the ~enemy~. I do not. I see it as a tool to assist me ( the best I can). There is no benefit in beating-up
    the mind as it will only revolt again and again. So , one needs a technique, an approach to use the mind to one's benefit - and as I
    have found so often it takes time, skill, patience and persistence . The wise call earnestness - my teacher called it one-pointedness.


    It is the wise person that learns how to go beyond the mind. To leave the mind - thus enters spiritual practices or upāya-s.
    This includes the breath as we discussed ( briefly) in post 10 above. Are there other ways? No doubt, yes.


    This is the recent insight I am wishing to truly absorb:

    the clearer you understand that on the level of the mind you can be described in negative terms only ( e.g.neti-neti), the quicker will
    you come to the end of your search and realize you are the limitless Being...
    śrī nisargadatta maharāj



    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 02 March 2011 at 02:56 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #14
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Pranam Yajvan

    We should here take the Katha UP example you say mind pulls one here and there in fact you know it is the senses that pulls one here and there. Senses if not checked would cause havoc, mind with the help of budhi puts the charioteer on course.

    But you are right it is the mind that convince the jiva despite budhis better judgment impels us to act.

    In my opinion mind is nothing but minefield of information, once one desires the mind comes in to play, it gives us from simplest to more complex solution. Sometimes it is not possible or practical to fulfil that desire at that moment so it stay as a backburner , it is with experience over a long period of time one will pursue a desire or not with or without, the consideration of consequence.

    Why desire what is desire? It is a state everyone seeks, is to be happy this is the mad rush everyone off us are seeking here and there, the mind has only the temporary solution but the soul seeks that which does not perish with time. Chewing the chewed that is all that we do there is no real happiness.


    As galib writes
    hazaaron Khvaahishen aisii ki har Khvaaish pe dam nikale
    bahut nikale mere armaaN lekin phir bhii kam nikale
    Roughly translated,
    thousand of desires are so that each one exhausts one,
    A lot off them comes to fruition yet does not satiate.


    So what Upaya or solution are there, there is no need to go against the tide but with constant meditation remembering that we have been there done it so it is time to give faith to budhi control that mind, give it a rest so to speak, engage that mind in real happiness, seek the good and not the pleasant.

    With constant practice what ever the spiritual practice one follows will help one find that goal from where there is no return. Be that Japa meditation, doing service to humanity, going to temples, observing fast on auspicious day like Shivaratri will all help eventually to give up those desires that bind us in this sansar.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  5. #15
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Of all these things that 'go' in part, it is the mind (collectively) that can prove to be most stubborn. Why so? because it protects it self .
    It is as if the mind has a mind of its own.
    śrī nisargadatta maharāj:
    Restlessness takes you nowhere. Something prevents you from seeing that there is nothing you need... Its like swallowing some poision
    and suffering from an unquenchable craving for water. Instad of drinking beyond all measure, why not eliminate the poison and free from this burning thirst.

    In this example the ~poision~ is the time-bound, limited view of being human. If we remove the 'human' part, then all that remains is
    Being. So, one may say I will renounce, I will relinquish all. I will approach this condition via vairāgya¹. This no doubt is a noble cause,
    but if done on the level of the ~mind~ without the direct personal experience of Being, of becoming established in Being (rūpātitā&#185,
    we still remain tied up in being human. We still are the limited, we have not moved out of the constraining condition.

    praṇām


    words
    • vairāgya - we know means the removal or indifference to worldly objects and to life; it also means change or loss of color , growing pale
    • rūpātitā = rūpā+ati+tā : rūpā = having the form + ati = beyond, surpassing + tā = crossing
    Last edited by yajvan; 09 March 2011 at 02:15 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    The mind, motion, movement

    So, here is the pickle as I see it. We are born into nature. This nature by its own nature is movement, motion, creation. Our body-mind complex
    is part of that.
    Even if we look at the saṃskṛt word for nature, it tells much:
    prakṛti - nature , character , constitution ; 'making or placing before or at first'; the original or natural form or condition
    pra + kṛti
    • pra = filling , fulfilling - as it is rooted in pṝ , defined as 'to grant abundantly'
    • kṛti = the act of doing , making , performing , manufacturing , composing
    This prakṛti is abundantly doing and composing. It enjoys creating, multiplying, unfolding, expanding abundantly.

    Hence we as human beings should not shrink from this condition. The whole universe is subjected to this expansion and creation -
    we experience it on the level of the mind with streams of thoughts, ideas, and the like.

    It is said, na hi kacit svnadmin ātmani muhūrtam avatiṣṭhate or, there is nothing that exists in its own form even for a moment .
    This is the behavior of prakṛti.

    Yet there is a part of us that is beyond the incessant movement and that is the Being part of us.

    Now, some of the wise would take issue with what I have said e.g. 'we are born into nature'. They would propose your body is born
    into nature, you are not the body. Hence begins the conversation on who ( some say the what) we really are.
    To be anchored to the body , one will be whirled around by nature, taken here and there as we experience this via our minds and
    the multiple thoughts we encounter every day. Become anchored to Being, and we reside in stillness, in silence.

    The wise say, you can have both... you can be within the world of change, yet be anchored to your true nature of (sattā) Being.
    This then becomes the notion of Unity. One has united diversity with the silence of Being. One then experiences the unity of all
    things in the mist of diversity - the essence of a spiritual / balanced life.

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 05 March 2011 at 08:21 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Mind, breath, food

    Now this prāṇa is also known as vital breath. Yet it is also interesting to note that life force (prāṇa) is also found in food. So, it is via the
    breath and food intake that we influence the mind.
    If we go a bit deeper into this idea, we can gain insight from the chāndogya upaniṣad , 6th chapter (prapāṭhaka - a lecture ; also a chapter).

    The food we eat gets separated out as three

    Food: the coarsest part becomes waste, the middling part becomes flesh and the subtlest part becomes mind.
    What we eat is composed of the tattva-s, yes? In turn we are composed of these tattva...
    Water : (āpaḥ) also separates into 3 , waste, blood, and prāṇa. There are other elements ( tattva) we can refer to but these
    two are part of the next story.

    In the chāndogya upaniṣad an aspirant of truth śvetaketu ( a śiṣya or student) is instructed to fast for 15 days, but drink water as he pleases.
    After the 15 days he approaches his father (as his teacher) as says what whould you like my to say? His father, āruṇi-ji , says you may recite
    the verses of the ṛk, yajur and sāma ved. Śvetaketu responds and says, I cannot recall them .

    And Why so? It is the nourishment of food that feeds the mind. Without it we are left without a vigorous mind/memory.
    We are are brought down to one amber of a big bonfire, says āruṇi-ji.

    Śvetaketu's life force , prāṇa, remained because he drank water for the 15 days, yet it was not fueled by food so one would be
    bright as the bon-fire. Hence how fasting/food is connected to knowledge, mind and memory... without a strong mind learning is difficult to achieve.

    Prāṇa & anna in the praśna upaniṣad -

    The guru here is pippalāda-ji¹ talking to his śiṣya-s or students and says the following:

    He (puruṣa) ~created~ ; The word used in the śloka is asṛjata. This sṛj is to to emit , let go, pour forth , shed , cause to flow ;
    jāta is born , brought into existence ( as ja is birth, produced or caused by ) . He then discusses prāṇa and anna (food).

    From prāṇa came :
    • śrāddha defined as faith or true, loyal
    • kha or vacuity , empty space , air , ether , sky ; another name for ākāśa
    • vāyu or air, gas, wind - some say vital air
    • jyotis or fire, some perfer light as the specific name
    • āpas or water; some say āpa - this is from āp to occupy, pervade as does water it spreads and pervades
    • pṛthvī - we know as earth, solid
    • indriya - the sense organs; this could include both the organs of perception and the organs of action
    • manas - mind . It is my assessment this means mind, intellect and ego facilities
    • and anna - food
    From food came:
    • vīrya - vigour , virility , vitality
    • mantra - hymns in the broadest sense; sacrificial formula; that portion of the ved which contains the texts called ṛc
      (some prefer ṛk or ṛig),
      yajus or sāman ved.
    • karma - actions
    • loka - can be defined as divisions, levels of existence. Let's go a little wider:
      • 3 lokas are commonly called out - heaven , earth , and the atmosphere or lower regions.
      • loka also has another meaning here as it is defined as the faculty of seeing , sight . So, all that can be seen.
        We can used ~seen~ as comprehended. So, loka takes on a huge vista of ideas.
    • lokeṣa is loka +eṣa - it is considered seeking within the worlds or planes of existence . I am not clear on this notion and continue
      to look for a more comprehensive description on this.
    • nāma - names. Why names? It is every thing that can be seen and unseen, can be given a name. Knowledge and mantra are
      transmitted by names. Hence the robustness of nāma.
    praṇām

    references

    Pippalāda-ji's lecture is found in the 4th sloka of the 6th chapter of the praśna upaniṣad as he calls out the 16 kalā-s offered to his 6 students .
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namast


    Mind -'this' and 'that'
    We have gone quite a ways without saying what mind is. Perhaps it would would be good to define mind, before the idea of this and that is offered.

    Mind = manas = in its widest sense can be considered intellect , intelligence , understanding , perception , sense , conscience or the faculty or instrument through which thoughts. It is not unusual to separate out the instrument of thought from intellect (buddhi), as well as memory , from the definition of the mind. It is always good to start with some definition. The point is we can define it and refer to the definitions as needed.

    So, I wished to call some attention to the notion of 'this' and 'that' as the arena where the mind is most attracted to. What do I mean? When we have thoughts ( and the ones we pay attention to) they're of this notion:

    • this place, this time, this moment, this house,car, place, family, job, friends, wife, husband, boss, bike, sky, ocean, etc.
    • that house, that idea, that old neighborhood, car, pants, shirt, shoes, dog, cat, hole, rail, wind, rain, etc.
    Its the notion of identifying this or that in the mind in time and space. But note what is absent ? The notion of 'now'. Now never ceases yet the mind gravitates to a condition of past or future. Even if I say 'this moment' it becomes in a millisecond 'that moment' and is now in the past.
    This is where the mind lives... in 'this' and 'that'. It is as if consciousness is fragmented into slices. In Reality full consciousness ( citi meaning a heap, collection) is not fragmented. Yet when we experience it as human beings it takes on the nature of apohana śakti :
    • apoha = to strip off , push away , to remove
    • na = the dental nasal sound found after certain consonants
    • śakti = we know as energy; some wish to know this by personalities - śrī devī as indrāṇī , vaiṣṇavī, brahmāṇī , kaumārī , nārasiṃhī , vārāhī , māheśvarī , cāmuṇḍā, caṇḍikā, etc.
    Hence this apohana śakti is the energy that 'strips off' or makes things appear as different between objects - 'this' and 'that'. But strips off from what ? From the whole, from the one-ness. That is, the distinction between things i.e. 'this' and 'that', we perceive or experience. This
    distinction is done by śiva as part of the unfoldment in creation.

    This is what I wish to talk about in the next post or two, but wanted to start here with the framework. The notion is there is an underlying unity, but we constantly dabble in the differences, and it is where the mind is attracted to.


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  9. #19
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    Thanks for continuing this topic, Yajvan-ji.
    I don't wish to 'jump the gun' but I wonder if it is 'ego' (ahaṃkāra) specifically which does the slicing into this and that which you refer to above?

  10. #20
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    Re: Just remove the 'human' part

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté Onkara ( oṁkāra अूंकार )

    Quote Originally Posted by Onkara View Post
    Thanks for continuing this topic, Yajvan-ji.
    I don't wish to 'jump the gun' but I wonder if it is 'ego' (ahaṃkāra) specifically which does the slicing into this and that which you refer to above?
    We will see and let you decide if ahaṃkāra ( I doer , ego) is part of the mischief. By its name (ahaṃ+kāra) it suggests it takes 'I' , in this case the Universal (citi from the last post) and makes it think it is doing.

    More in the next few posts...

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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