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Thread: How does Advaita counter this argument?

  1. #31

    Re: How does Advaita counter this argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    At first I thought, well, the sorrow and pain wouldn't be the true nature of the divine... However, I noticed the question is not HOW, but instead, WHY. So the inquiry is basically: Why would God (Brahman), that is viewed as One, become two and put itself under influences that are not the reflection of his inate nature?

    Om Tat Sat
    Good question. If one is Brahman, why doesn't one feel bliss at all times? Calling it maya (and comparing it with our dream state) doesn't help, since it's tantamount to saying Brahman itself is subject to maya and is dreaming like an ordinary jiva. Now can Brahman, the all-knowing and ever-blissful, ever be subjected to maya and suffer like this?

  2. #32

    Re: How does Advaita counter this argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by NayaSurya View Post
    It seems there are two portions here to consider. One is why would things be good and bad, happy and sad...pleasure and pain if We are He.

    I used to ponder this question a lot as a child. It was one of those things I just couldn't get past. I remember being barely six or seven and asking the mormon elder why heaven was so so good. He was puzzled by this as I seemed very distressed. He said..."Don't worry heaven is perfect,always good and always wonderful."

    But, his reply disturbed me even more...as I know that without wretched there can be no way to quantify wonderful.

    There can be no way to know and mark the darkness without having some knowledge of light?

    Isvara, in all His Beautiful, Wondrousness wanted to truly feel these things. So He broke Himself off, each portion just as the last...gently placing them onto the stage and manifesting this world.

    The second portion of this is...Why would He bring Himself to such a state of misery and imperfection?

    Well, look no further than your own parents, or your own children to answer this mystery. Broken off from this fragile vessel I brought these children into the world of pain and suffering because I know...that no matter what.....no matter what...we are always always fine....always perfect.
    Nothing can change this...nothing. Kill me...take my sight...break me into bits...and I will remain whole.

    These children were brought into this world to share this joy...and happiness...and with it comes sorrow and pain as they are inevitable portions of this blessed and wretched experience.


    How can one truly know the gentle sentiments of love without one to love?

    Holding my child...I close my eyes and I hug Shiva, I look into their eyes overwhelmed with this Beautiful Truth. It's almost too much to bear...knowing Beloved is Always Watching.


    Today was a birthday, the 15th for our Sonshine...

    We came for the Love, and stay for the ice cream.
    your post gave me goosebumps. of course there is good and evil and taste and distaste in heaven. unending beautiful scenery and the ugliest buildings there are, in which divinities sometimes actually wishes to live.

    I got this from a friend who has seen hell many times. (he has been locked up for 12 years because of 1 cannabis joint, he is now forever a stubborn nutter who believes he needs to cleanse everything from black magic using water from the dunes)

  3. #33
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    Re: How does Advaita counter this argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by karna View Post
    Good question. If one is Brahman, why doesn't one feel bliss at all times? Calling it maya (and comparing it with our dream state) doesn't help, since it's tantamount to saying Brahman itself is subject to maya and is dreaming like an ordinary jiva. Now can Brahman, the all-knowing and ever-blissful, ever be subjected to maya and suffer like this?
    brahman is never subjected to torture by maya ....

    brahman has two head. one is brahman..the blissful, other head is maya.he can"t cut second head as both head are vital for its existence.
    Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
    Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.


    My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
    entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
    of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.

  4. #34
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    Re: How does Advaita counter this argument?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    At first I thought, well, the sorrow and pain wouldn't be the true nature of the divine... However, I noticed the question is not HOW, but instead, WHY. So the inquiry is basically: Why would God (Brahman), that is viewed as One, become two and put itself under influences that are not the reflection of his inate nature?

    Om Tat Sat
    Devotee has already answered this question wonderfully.

    My thoughts on this are as follows:

    Sorrow, happiness, excitement, etc. are ephemeral states of being. Think of it like a river that is either flooding (sadness) or flowing gently (happiness). The water that is fundamental to the river is the Atman. Any characteristics that attempt to describe the "river" are ephemeral and ultimately not OUTSIDE of the water that makes up the river. Many forget the water and focus only on the flooding or placidity of the water, not the water itself.

    The fourth state TurIyA is like the water. The other three states are states of being that cannot exist without the fourth. That is why Brahman is TRANSCENDENT yet IMMANENT.

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    Re: How does Advaita counter this argument?

    My understanding :

    A lifeless body is not a human. Nor the life is a human. It is the combination of the two that is called human.

    The perception is at systems level and not component level. Our perception is matter only, which cannot exist without consciousness. We cannot percieve consciousness as it cannot be by definition (as it is the source) though it exists independently.

    These two aspects are called higher form (consciousness) and the lower form (matter). Now you may term it as higher form of brahman and lower form of brahman or brahman and maya or paraprakriti and aparaprakriti or purusha and prakriti, etc.

    Now that we can only percieve matter, it is inherently bringing in the consciousness with it. However we miss to recognise the consciousness as a seperate entity. We get stuck to the matter part only. This matter is subject to changes and thus fluctuations. These changes are the ones which attracts us - the colour, forms, emotions, activities, thoughts, etc. Though they are fatal - in the sense that they bind us perpetually to the maya cycle - we fail to out grow this stage mostly. Any change brings change in the state of mind. So we go through the pains and pleasure, etc.

    However the other part, being the enabler of the lower part, is permanent, changeless and bland substratum. The feeling of "I" comes from there. Resting the mind in this "I" is the permanent blissful state. No change means no change in state of mind - so blissful.

    It is like the cinema we see on the bland permanent substratum screen. We get engrossed in the cinema - flow with the emotions and lose sight of the substratum. However we cannot see the film only by projection or only by screen. It needs both.

    So it depends on us, where we want to rest our mind - the ever changing beautiful prakriti or the bland changeless higher form of brahman.

    That depends on our karma.

    Love and best wishes

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