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Thread: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

  1. #11
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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    Any religion, ideology, philosophy is going to have people who disagree with the central ideas. Sometimes the rulers of countries try to impose religion on the people and prosecute them. In the west this was done by Abrahamics, in the East mostly by the Buddhists. Buddhism has always been a proselytising religion just like Christianity. Hinduism has never prosecuted religious heretics like the nastikas who have diametrically opposed themselves from the Hindu religion. One influential 7th century Buddhist philosopher, Dharmakirti even wrote a stanza saying:

    वेद प्रामाण्यं कस्य चित् कर्तृवादः स्नाने धर्मेच्छा जातिवादाव लेपः|
    संतापारंभः पापहानाय चेति ध्वस्तप्रज्ञानां पञ्च लिङगानि जाड्ये||

    "Believing that the Veda are standard (holy or divine), believing in a Creator for the world, Bathing in holy waters for gaining punya, having pride (vanity) about one's caste, Performing penance to absolve sins, Are the five symptoms of having lost one's sanity."

    Hindus have not stoned the Buddhist or Charvakas to death, but rather have contemplated and debates these ideas. The Charvakas pose a question for example "if the sacrificial animal goes to heaven, why don't you sacrifice your own father?" I don't know all the debates that have gone on about this question, but interestingly we can find a answer from saint Tulasi Dasa, probably unintented, in the Rama Charita Manasa: "with great fortune have we obtained this human body which is even hard to obtain for the gods as is sung in all the scriptures." Bare bhaga manusha tana pava, sura durlabha saba granthanhi gava.

    You can say that Buddhist were acting similar to the Satanists, at the one hand appropiating a lot from a particular religion and at the other hand opposing strongly to its central ideas. Hindus have not seen any crime in this and therefore nastikas were never prosecuted for their religion, although Hindus have debated their ideas fiercly. Buddhism (in Asia), Islam in the (middle east) and Christianity (in the west) though have taken militairy offence of heathen ideas. Luckily the Dalai Lama in India is now making statements against proselytising.

    What I think is interesting is that all these nastika philosophies have a central theme of momentariness whether they are ascetic or hedonistic, while Hinduism (and maybe Taoism also) places emphasis on the eternity of the Self. As Krishna says in the Gita there was never a time nor will there ever be a time when I nor you did not or will not exist. While in the Abrahamic religions the self is created by a God and a soul is something given to you by God. Christians have this belief that you can sell your soul to the devil, this idea does not make sense in Hinduism.

    An interesting parallel in ideology between the Buddhists and the Epicureans is the attitude of "why bother?" when it comes to questions about the existence of gods or of Brahman, since in their view "living in the moment" is all important as a remedy to relieve suffering. This train of thought was present both in ancient India and in the west.

    yawad jiwet sukham jivet rinam kritva gritam pivet bhasmibhutasya dehasya punaragamaya kim?

    From Charvaka: As long as you live, create debt and drink ghee, when the body has turned to ashes how can you come back?

    ..sapias, vina liques, et spatio brevispem longam reseces. dum loquimur, fugerit invidaaetas: carpe diem quam minimum credula postero...

    From the Epicurean poet, Horace: be wise, strain the wine, and scale back your long hopes, to a short period. While we speak, envious time will have {already} fled, Seize the day, trusting as little as possible in the future.

    See also the topic on Kshana Bhangavada and Shankara's argumentation, all the darshanas of Hinduism (astika) disagree with kshana bhangavada or theory of momentariness, maybe that's why its called Sanatana Dharma.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 22 March 2011 at 05:28 AM.

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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    By respect, I certainly didn't mean I admire or would encourage someone to practice this philosophy. But I do believe that "satanism"(I believe hedonism better describes it) makes good philosophical points for the west that you shouldn't blindly follow something but you should make the choice yourself to follow it. You say it's not as bad as Fundamentalist Christianity but I say this. Does Leveyan satanism prosletize? No. Does it claim authority on the truth? No. Does it compare to the number of killings Christianity had? Not even close.
    Namaste TheOne,

    I agree that the term Satanism has been poorly chosen. As Sanjaya was saying, naming a philosophy and lifestyle after the demonic force of Christianity is hardly going to get you started on the right foot! Even Jews who see Satan as more of a force of maya (to delude thinking and cause people to go astray, rather than amass an army to "fight" God), would hardly have this title sit right with them. But you do make good points on that, otherwise.

    Om namah Shivaya
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become your character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

    ॐ गं गणपतये नमः
    Om Gam Ganapataye namah

    लोकाः समस्ताः सुखिनो भवन्तु ।
    Lokaah SamastaaH Sukhino Bhavantu

  3. #13
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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    PS: Sanjaya, who cares what "Christians" think? They already think we're "destined for hell" does it matter to use what their opinion is. No it does not. A person who spent literally 30 minutes looking up the tenets of Hinduism knows that we are NOT demon worshiping sodomites. But research and fact checking are things most Fundamentalist Christians rarely do.
    Well I for one care what Christians think, because I live in America and America is run by Christians. For the moment the evangelicals in my country are at war with Islam, and our religion isn't really on their radar. But there are already evangelicals out there who try to stop the construction of Hindu temples, curtail the expression of Hinduism in public schools, and otherwise keep Hindus out of American public life. As an American citizen I care what Christians think, because otherwise they will discriminate against me on the basis that I am Indian and Hindu, and it can have a noticeable impact on my ability to freely practice Hinduism.

    As a secondary concern: Christians have not only political power, but economic power as well. They regularly use their money to send missionaries to India to convert Hindus, as well as to run "college ministry" to Hindus by which they convert both American Hindus and international students. As long as they think that we are some kind of devil worshiper, they'll be able to rally more Americans to their cause to bring India out of the alleged darkness of Satan. That's why I want to do everything I can to show that Hinduism has nothing to do with Satanic worship, and that we don't approve of such idiocy. The theologians will continue to decry Hinduism as a false religion. But when the average American Christian sees that we are honest devotees of God who do not worship any sort of demons, maybe said Christian will think twice about jumping on the plane to India to tear Hindus from our religion.

    Remember: most Christians don't spend thirty minutes researching Hinduism. The few that do are so blinded by their unquestioned faith that they don't believe what the encyclopedia tells them. They sit in churches all day listening to pastors talk about the darkness that supposedly grips India. All they need to hear is one Hindu say something positive about Satanism and that view will be forever cemented in their minds. Why should we care? Because they have money and power, and we don't.

    Hence why I have nothing good to say about Satanism. As far as I can tell, it's an idiotic religion for idiotic people who want to rebel against their Catholic parents. Seriously, who goes and announces to the world that he worships a fictitious demon who's going to burn him in hell?

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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    "First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."


    This quote was said by a German Priest in regards to the Nazis. We can think that Christianity is involved with a battle with Islam. Yeah sure, for the time being. But once they get over that they have to have a new "enemy" to "turn to the light". I have a strong feeling it will be mainly misguided New Agers tied in with that any "Pagan" religion.


    What use of it is to "appease the Christian" yes, I live in America, yes every day I see absurd instances of Western superiority. Appeasing them will never solve the problem. What Christians think about Hindus has no impact one a persons personal devotion to God.


    As for Levayan Satanism being "worshipping the devil" you obviously didn't read the first post or research on the internet what Levay's philosophy was.

    Christians worship a God who is ready to torture people for all eternity for not worshiping him.



    You think Christians don't already think we are demon worshipers. Look at these pictures comparing Kali to Jesus. A comparison which is almost laughable if they weren't so serious about it

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...39247422786146

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...39247422786146

  5. #15
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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    "First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."


    This quote was said by a German Priest in regards to the Nazis. We can think that Christianity is involved with a battle with Islam. Yeah sure, for the time being. But once they get over that they have to have a new "enemy" to "turn to the light". I have a strong feeling it will be mainly misguided New Agers tied in with that any "Pagan" religion.


    What use of it is to "appease the Christian" yes, I live in America, yes every day I see absurd instances of Western superiority. Appeasing them will never solve the problem. What Christians think about Hindus has no impact one a persons personal devotion to God.
    Would you walk into a Nazi bar wearing a kippah and tefillin? Standing up to the bad guy is only beneficial when you win.

    Anyway, I think I may not have communicated clearly this time. Appeasement isn't what I suggest here, only a legitimate emphasis on the fact that Hinduism has nothing to do with Satanism, LaVeyan or otherwise. Supporting Satanists isn't going to do anything to advance Hinduism's reputation among anyone. It's such a small movement that it can't effectively fight Christianity in America. If you wanted to make a deal with the devil (so to speak), the New Atheists movement would be a better choice. They're the ones stealing the most souls from churches these days. Not that I'm too keen on the idea of supporting atheists either.

    What I'm saying is that this "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" theory doesn't work. Christianity is bad, but not everything anti-Christian is good. Islam is a great example. Here in the West Muslims are being persecuted. But if you started donating money to mosques, some of it would likely go to Muslims in India who bomb Hindus. We would do better to support our fellow Hindus than to pretend that there's any value in things like Satanism.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    As for Levayan Satanism being "worshipping the devil" you obviously didn't read the first post or research on the internet what Levay's philosophy was.
    I am indeed aware that LaVeyan Satanism does not involve actual worship of any Satan figure, and that it is effectively a theory of hedonism. But let's face it: Satanism in any form isn't a serious religion. Every person I know who claims to be a Satanist (which amounts to three people) is a spoiled rich kid who hates his parents and dresses up in all black. With a name like Satanism, they might as well have called it "the un-Christianity." And might I suggest that what the philosophy really entails is irrelevant to how we ought to relate to it. The fact of the matter is that most Americans who hear of this religion will think of people conducting some Black Mass and hailing Satan. So in the name of not caring what Christians think, do we go around proclaiming "we worship demons?"

    One might claim not to care what anyone else thinks, but taken to its extreme this is psychopathy. The world is interconnected, and Christians' opinions of us matter to some extent or another. I for one would not want them to think that I am a demon worshiper, especially since it isn't true. Misrepresenting Hinduism to please evangelical Christians would be appeasement. What I am asking is that we portray Hinduism to them as it truly is. Hindus don't worship demons, so we should make sure that evangelical Christians know this. Hindus who say good things about Satanism is why Jack Chick is able to publish those tracts portraying Hinduism as demonic. Let's not also forget that it alienates the few decent, non-evangelical Christians out there, who have no more love for Satan than their fundamentalist counterparts. Why give them cause to wonder if maybe the fundamentalists are right about us?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    Christians worship a God who is ready to torture people for all eternity for not worshiping him.
    But Satanists named their religion after someone who supposedly does the same thing (the Christian theology of Satan is far more complicated than this, but you get the idea). I believe that Dharma is the cure to Christianity, not some stupid religion for angry teenagers.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    You think Christians don't already think we are demon worshipers. Look at these pictures comparing Kali to Jesus. A comparison which is almost laughable if they weren't so serious about it

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...39247422786146

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...39247422786146
    I saw this one time when a Christian tried to convert me. Read the whole thing before tossing it, and you're right that it's laughable. The question is: are you going to let the Christians continue in their delusion? Or are you going to combat it? If you call Christians ignorant for equating Kali with Satan while simultaneously singing the praises of a religion called "Satanism," how is any reasonable person going to interpret this?

    Or worse, how is an evangelical Christian, who by definition is unreasonable, going to react?

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    Cool Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    I certainly hope no one was believing I was singing praises of Satanism as that was certainly not my intent.


    Of course I would prefer that Christians be educated about Dharma rather than be ignored entirely but education should be education and I certainly believe that many "un-Christian" religions are yes, embraced by angsty teenagers(may my hypocritical tongue be burned ) but some of them raise valid points against Christianity and some of them are misguided Dharmics(New Agers, Wiccans, Druidism) but those are few and many of them are corrupted too by the "un-Christianity" movement. Yes, I do believe that Levayan Satinism is a rebellion against Christianity a righteous rebel? No. But a rebel with a cause? Yes.

    I'm sorry I confused you with a few of my points I was just attempting to show that while we should not associate with Satanists in any fashion we should certainly not chastise them for rebelling against Christianity.

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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    If you look at that picture comparing Kali Ma and Jesus, who do you worship? Of course I'll worship Kali Ma before a bearded man in a robe who walks in a park holding someone else's kid's hand.

    On a more serious note, those pictures show a lot of quotes from the Bible. If we think about it some of them are so ingrained in our culture even in Indian culture. It's good to read them so that you can recognise them when you see them.

    Bible: The love for money is the root of all evil.

    Counter argument: The lack of money is the root of all evil...

    It's kinda sad though to see that these evangelicals are even fighting catholics who worship images. They are similar to the Arya Samajists in Hinduism. For those who don't know, these evangelicals have actually influenced neo-Hindu movements like Arya Samaj who are now abrahamics in disguise fighting against murti puja and our devatas and devis and turning the vedas into the bible and koran. Even if all the evangelics left Bharata, they have people on the inside doing their job. The evangelics only convert stupid people, but the Arya Samaj take their share from the pseudo-intellectuals.
    Last edited by Sahasranama; 22 March 2011 at 06:16 PM.

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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    I certainly hope no one was believing I was singing praises of Satanism as that was certainly not my intent.
    Burn him!

    I've been reading the Malleus Maleficarum lately. Anyone who wants to know more about the madness that christianity was founded upon should read it.

    It's a clear evidence of how christianity turned into a misoginistic crusade against the female essence. This didn't resulted in just oppresion of women, but also ruthless treatment of the world, the great mother.

    Anyone who's a Hindu and visits here, please flag these photos for offensive material.
    Last edited by Adhvagat; 22 March 2011 at 06:33 PM.

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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    I used to be in "one of those types of Christians". A few summers ago at a Christian camp I vaguely remember some women telling a story about how a girl was "saved by Jesus" in India and saved from forced prostitution in a Hindu temple. I believed it. My young and impressionable mind had that image impressed into it.

    It's not the preaching that Christians do, I can just ignore that or disprove them in arguments. It's them literally EXPLOITING children to gain more followers. It's absolutely sickening that they teach their children how "Hindoos are satan worshippers, along with Muslims. But the Jews are children of God and anyone who offends them is an enemy of God". That is literally what they taught.

    I have no love of people who are rebellious just to be rebellious but I truly feel that the Neo-pagan, Satanist, New Age, etc. etc. are a misguided but genuine rebellion against the sick practices that take place in Christianity.


    Just my take on things.

  10. #20
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    Re: LaVeyan Satanism and Carvaka.

    Movie recommendation: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/

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