A brief reflection on Atheism, God, Pluralism and Monism.

[Water]

I beg to differ. Your thoughts are quite not true facts but they are mere observations.

In any particular context, or do you mean everything in general?

Mahatma Gandhi wasn't assassinated? I'm pretty sure that's a fact, and in being a fact is an observation reflected by many parties with provable evidence.

If you mean the Vaisnavite and Saivite intra-religious violence (not war, but violence), I could very well be misinformed. However, from readings I am under the impression that I am not. The source of that understanding is the book I referred to previously.

There are factual accounts of Hindu on Sikh violence and factual accounts of Hindu on Buddhist violence.

From memory, I can recall the Kahsmir Buddhists.

The first organized crusade throughout the Buddhism in Kashmir was made by Raja ' Nara.' It is said that he harassed and terrorised Buddhists to such an extent that famous Buddhist Scholar Nagarjuna had to run away from Kashmir to south. In the sixth century A. D. Mihirkula (or Mihirula) the legendary terrorist king of Kashmir harassed Buddhists here.

Mihirakula is remembered in contemporary Indian and Chinese histories for his cruelty and his destruction of temples and monasteries, with particular hostility towards Buddhism. He claimed to be a worshipper of Shiva.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihirakula

The next thing I expect to hear is, "You can't use that reference as it's a fanatical individual not representing a whole."

And to that I reply, "Every action of violence that is sanctioned by the individual as being divine in nature is a fanatical individual not representing the whole."

It is incredulous any number of Americans in 2011 believe that if you don’t believe in Jesus and bible you are bound to rot in eternal hell.

I have no idea the relevance of this...?

I would also ask that you expand your scope - more than America is pervaded by Christianity. There are an "incredulous number" of Christians in China that believe you are bound to rot in eternal hell.

Can you dream of a scenario wherein a Sikh man (prime minister) to rule in his second term as we speak, should there be a hatred for Sikhs? Don’t think so. Om Shanti.

I don't understand the relevance of this, either. America has a black president - does that mean there was never any racism and violence between African Americans and Caucasians?

[charitra]

Gandhi was assassinated but not for religion sake; would you say Lincoln assassination was religion based? [/font]

“famous Buddhist Scholar Nagarjuna had to run away from Kashmir to south”

He settled down in Andhra state where I come from. South was much more hindu than north. I mean with no muslim invasions ever seriously disturbing the religious tranquility it thankfully enjoyed, for almost entire 600 yrs of unrelenting invasions that crippled the North. Therefore the Buddhists must have faced more severe persecution in a hindu stronghold south if at all. By your own admission he was secure there. so what your book says is that some pockets existed with some persecution. Probably true but that doesn’t mean we paint Hinduism with a broad brush, because in contemporary religion landscape it is comparative religion we speak of. The degree of so called persecution demanding a mention was nt a documented historical fact. By the way the said King Nara wasn’t one most of us remember, we remember Ashoka a hindu emperor though, who propagated Buddhism across Asia. His Chakra is displayed in Indian National flag.

Attempts were made by antihindus to justify the failure of Buddhism to sweep the entire hindu stronghold. Well whatever the reasons are, violence and persecution simply don’t make the list. Why then in south the faith didn’t take off ? The doctrinal weakness of the said faith was the probable reason. Firstly the hindu doctrines like dharma, karma, yoga, rebirth were adopted as is and Nirvana echoes moksha in a big way. Not much was talked about Brahman and the infiniteness of the Brahman, not much was talked about the universe and its relevance to Brahman as the creator, maintainer and destroyer and the like. Frankly Hindus simply didn’t see a whole lot of originality there Im afraid. Persecution, did you say? Why in Kerala hundreds of years ago Christians flourished even before much of Europe embraced the faith? Why Sikhs were allowed to propagate their faith much later in that case then? Every other hindu household showcases a Buddha image at home.

The relevance about ‘ even in 2011 Americans believing in hell’ comment was just an example to underscore we cannot forcibly dispel myths people harbor, as a parable as to why the tribals in hindu lands were not forcibly converted to Hinduism then and now. But instead were allowed to grasp the doctrines at their own pace, yes agree it is irrelevant otherwise to the debate.

‘ a Sikh man ruling India’- in just 20 yrs you get to see such a huge change in the mindset of a nation, transforming them from persecutors to admirers? Not convincing !! By religion Sikhs are the richest group in India, comparable to Jews in America (blacks are the opposite). They were treated well until they started shooting people, and are treated well again once they stopped shooting people.
Obama is half white, please lets show some respect to his mother. America having a black president is a welcome ‘must do’ compensatory gesture for the wrongs committed against blacks. No such atrocities were ever committed against Sikhs or any other faiths by hindus. It was in fact the other way around all through the history until just 60 yrs ago, for almost 1000 yrs. Namaste.

[Water]

Thank you for the clarification. I see some of the points very clearly now and agree with most of them.

Gandhi was assassinated but not for religion sake; would you say Lincoln assassination was religion based?

Lincoln's Assassination was not carried out for the Association of National Christians... I do not understand the relevance.

One of the alleged motivators in Godse's murder of Gandhi was the thought that Gandhi was reducing the strength of Hindu interest in favor of Muslims. You could say this was more socio-politically motivated, however, the condemning relationship to religion and the act is there.

Probably true but that doesn’t mean we paint Hinduism with a broad brush, because in contemporary religion landscape it is comparative religion we speak of. The degree of so called persecution demanding a mention was nt a documented historical fact.

As I said, the understanding that I have is from the book I referenced. There are sections available on Google Books - I just checked. If it is incorrect - then it is incorrect.

I am not intending to attempt to paint Hinduism with a broad brush of violent and terrible people - that would be completely ridiculous, in my opinion. I am only attempting to point out that the argument presented by another member that there was never a single violent Hindu in history is fundamentally flawed. Every religion and culture has their own ability to become violent and fanatical regardless.

India builds weapons just like any other country. There is an army, just like any other country. Hindus design components of weapons, Hindus throughout history have trained in warfare, etc, etc. Simply saying that "non-violence is Hinduism therefore there has never been violence by Hindu people" is impractical and the very point I was trying to counter.

Obama is half white, please lets show some respect to his mother. America having a black president is a welcome ‘must do’ compensatory gesture for the wrongs committed against blacks. No such atrocities were ever committed against Sikhs or any other faiths by hindus. It was in fact the other way around all through the history until just 60 yrs ago, for almost 1000 yrs. Namaste.

[/quote]

I agree. No such comparable actions were committed against the Sikhs that were committed in the racial unrest of America. I did not intend to compare the two, I was only using a contrasting point to get more understanding.

[charitra]

quote' I agree. No such comparable actions were committed against the Sikhs that were committed in the racial unrest of America. I did not intend to compare the two, I was only using a contrasting point to get more understanding.[/quote]

Hmmm. Lets see. Americans simply wiped out all the natives, hounded them like animals, banned and banished them to move several states west and sold some other people in the streets. True. Americans treated nonwhites very diferently indeed. The europeans have genocided millions of natives especially in south america and forcibly converted them from a reign of terror.

In 1920 they encted a law to ban Asian immigration and only to open in 1965.They used nuked Japanese but not Germans. Any rerasons? I have many good things to say about america, but in the realm of interfaith dont compare to India. India has over 300million nonhindus living on its soil, the tensions are bound to be manifold compared to an almost completely christian america.

I lived in 2 lands we are talking about, how about you, did you? Compare Sikhs to American Jews not to American Blacks . Sikhs can speak for themselves, you may want to make a trip to India and see for yourself, understand incomplete knowledge is comical and even dangerous sir.Riots are different from persecution.

[Water]

quote' I agree. No such comparable actions were committed against the Sikhs that were committed in the racial unrest of America. I did not intend to compare the two, I was only using a contrasting point to get more understanding.

Hmmm. Lets see. Americans simply wiped out all the natives, hounded them like animals, banned and banished them to move several states west and sold some other people in the streets. True. Americans treated nonwhites very diferently indeed. The europeans have genocided millions of natives especially in south america and forcibly converted them from a reign of terror.

In 1920 they encted a law to ban Asian immigration and only to open in 1965.They used nuked Japanese but not Germans. Any rerasons? I have many good things to say about america, but in the realm of interfaith dont compare to India. India has over 300million nonhindus living on its soil, the tensions are bound to be manifold compared to an almost completely christian america.

I lived in 2 lands we are talking about, how about you, did you? Compare Sikhs to American Jews not to American Blacks . Sikhs can speak for themselves, you may want to make a trip to India and see for yourself, understand incomplete knowledge is comical and even dangerous sir.

Wait, what?

So you have gone on the offensive to say that America is inherently evil and that I somehow have an incomplete knowledge? Who has a complete knowledge? Certainly not either of us....

I think you are extremely EXTREMELY misunderstanding what I'm saying. Pietro implied that all Hindus throughout history have never expressed any sort of oppressive nature or violence. That is one extreme.

I am implying that as an extreme, that is simply not true.

You are implying that America is evil. That doesn't even relate to what I thought we were talking about.

On the planet I live on... this one called Earth... Humans are prone to violence, oppression, distasteful accounts, ostracizing communities and committing otherwise "harmful" acts irregardless of what their religious doctrine includes.

I want to be VERY VERY #@$%(! clear that I am in no way accusing any specific race of being more evil than another. That would be irresponsible and stupid.

The basic statement that "Hindus say ahimsa = nonviolence = Hindus are never violent" is uninformed. It is equivalent to saying, "Christians have the Golden Rule = Treat others as you expect to be treated = Christians are never violent." These are certainly improper extremes.

Humans... HUMANS are all of these things regardless of their religion. There are examples of violence whether it be religiously motivated, socio-political or in defense in every single living civilization in history.

The communication I was attempting to make. What communication are you attempting to make?

[charitra]

Namaste Water,
Along with many other prayers/kirtans I listen to, the following two have a special place. Hope you enjoy them on this Saturday morn, a typical hindu prayer day of the week. Good debating with you, ‘cause you touched upon some soul searching issues which need some serious consideration by all of us... In a global village we live in now, I must lament, comparisons become an inevitable refuge, even though they can prove very hurtful. Om Shanti.[/font]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j2BxkCSmiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJYSp...eature=related

[Water]

I'm not sure of the weather in your area, but it's a bright and cool day here. I just came back from a walk to "Rama Bolo."

"Om Mani Padme Huum" is a daily mainstay for me.

The global society is always a little tricky and filled with misunderstandings. It is easy to get stuck on a downward trend of comparisons filled with painful pricks to the heart on issues we feel strongly about.

Thank you for your participation.