What is Brahman to ISKCON? How is it defined? Is it different to other Hindu "sects"? If so how?
What is Brahman to ISKCON? How is it defined? Is it different to other Hindu "sects"? If so how?
Namaste
BrahmaN to ISKCON is the same as BrahmaN to all Gaudiya VaishNavs , to the entire umbrella of VaishNavs, and to all followers of the Ved - Sanatan Dharma.
Particularly, Shrimad BhAgvatam, prime scripture, tells us that the Supreme can be viewed on three levels or in three ways:
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.2.11
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaḿ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate
Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā or Bhagavān.
PURPORT by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAd
The Absolute Truth is both subject and object, and there is no qualitative difference there. Therefore, Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān are qualitatively one and the same. The same substance is realized as impersonal Brahman by the students of the Upaniṣads, as localized Paramātmā by the Hiraṇyagarbhas or the yogīs, and as Bhagavān by the devotees. In other words, Bhagavān, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth. Paramātmā is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god.
....
...
As it is explained in the first śloka of the First Chapter of the Bhāgavatam, the Supreme Truth is self-sufficient, cognizant and free from the illusion of relativity. In the relative world the knower is different from the known, but in the Absolute Truth both the knower and the known are one and the same thing. In the relative world the knower is the living spirit or superior energy, whereas the known is inert matter or inferior energy. Therefore, there is a duality of inferior and superior energy, whereas in the absolute realm both the knower and the known are of the same superior energy. There are three kinds of energies of the supreme energetic. There is no difference between the energy and energetic, but there is a difference of quality of energies. The absolute realm and the living entities are of the same superior energy, but the material world is inferior energy. The living being in contact with the inferior energy is illusioned, thinking he belongs to the inferior energy. Therefore there is the sense of relativity in the material world. In the Absolute there is no such sense of difference between the knower and the known, and therefore everything there is absolute.
----
Ishwar parama krushNa
saccidAnanda vigraha
anAdirAdir govindam
sarva kAraNa kAraNam
- Shri Shri Brahma Samhita 5.1 - by Lord BrahmA.
SYNONYMS
īśvaraḥ — the controller; paramaḥ — supreme; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; sat — comprising eternal existence; cit — absolute knowledge; ānanda — and absolute bliss; vigrahaḥ — whose form; anādiḥ — without beginning; ādiḥ — the origin; govindaḥ — Lord Govinda; sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam — the cause of all causes.
TRANSLATION
Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.
Govindam AdiPurusham Tam aham bhajAmi ~
praNAm
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
[QUOTE]Excellent post smaranam ji,my sata pranam,
what you said is absolutely the gist of Guadiya vaishnav,and its the truth realized by true acharyas who have see the absolute truth in all forms(purna jnani premika siromanis).
But ISKON,i dont think they view in this way.they tend to say Brahman is qualitatively inferior as if sunrays is lower that sun.and mayawadis go into brahman with lower level of bliss ,if at all![]()
knowing brahman is like becoming sweet,but knowing bhagban is like eating sweets.![]()
i need your opinion.
Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.
My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.
From what I've seen from ISKCON gurus, they don't say it's inferior, perhaps not directly, but they definitely state that if Krishna is the source of these emanation, why not worship Krishna directly?
They want to say that Personal form is first and brahman(sunrays) part is second.so 1st is origin of second. which is completely wrong and against the very ethos of advita.
Its like butter in milk. Brahman is the milk. Butter is Bhagaban(whichever name you may call him like krishna/Ram/Siva).
So in Brahmananda anubhuti,one experience both componenets......the all pervading akhana-sachidananda tattva plus Bhagaban tattva ,but not like personal bhagaban of bhaktas. so they taste butter,but mixed with milk.
But a bhakta who enter LEELA ,serve and experience Personal Bhagaban,its more pure,more loving and more rasa-yukta.so its like tasting butter directly.
but Bhakta of such qualities definitely also miss the other parts of milk.so they miss swaroop-ananda and they can"t be as liberal and broad as advitin.
this is the reason,pure bhakti-margi appears fundamentalist,but it shows their un-diluted love for divine only.so we can view this as positive things.![]()
This is the difference between Nitya and leela.
Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.
My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.
Hare KrushNa
Shat praNAm
What is my opinion ? No opinion. I just live with MohanA. I don't know what you say. Sometimes i am 9, sometimes 12, sometimes 14 like Lukmini, sometimes oldel but light now i am 5. So how can i undelstand all these big big worlds ? See when i was youngle i said "LAdhe" , She says, now you can plonounce the "R", why say "Ladhe", but i just like to continue saying Ladhe. Then all the sakhis think i am so cute and they blaid my hail and LAdhe gives mewa mithayi tho eat. But i don't let anyone else blaid my hail only MohanA ol Ladhe. That's it. But mostly i play with MohanA.
------
BhagvAn being superior to BrahmaN has to be understood in the right light. If butter gives more delight, it is superior. I'll give you homogenized full-fat milk to drink. It tastes like whole-milk, not like butter. How can you taste butter ?
DnyAneshwar Maharaj says churn the milk and get the butter, but not keval advaita - it also denies the other nutrients, calcium and fat in milk as saguN, so only water remains. Also, who is going to hold the ravi to churn the milk and who is around to "see" the butter, skim it, (no hands), eat it ? Finally, who is there to share the butter (the joy of sharing) ?
This means, the ultimate cannot be the milk - or worse, the water. There has to be someone in charge. Kevala followers say that go into turya and come back out - then share material butter with all. However, there is turyAteeta - BhagvAn and His entourage - welcome to the spiritual world.
I love reading your posts, AnirvanJi, however, AnadiJi is right, you are portraying the advaita as explained in vedas - Satyam jn~Anam anantam VishNum anAkasham paramAkAsham... , not keval advaita as it is taught. Any modern-day keval advaita follower will tell you it is taboo to have "another pair of eyes to look into". Neither are you allowed to exist nor is BhagvAn. I did not know this myself ( i thought advaita means love all as oneself ), and was horrified to discover this - so i asked KrushNA MadhusudanA - please let us get off this Advaita cruise ship. He was so kind to take me on that curiosity-cruise in the first place. I am not exactly dying to meet Rangadevi, Tungavidya, Jatila or Mukhara, but wiping out everything is too much.
----
Similar thinking in how KrushNA > VishNu to the Gaudiyas. It means this:
KrushNa == VishNu in tattva
KrushNa > VishNu in ras, mAdhurya - acc. to Lord Chaitanya
Hey, but i love my Lord as Chaturbhuj NAlAyaN, He is so madhul and calm and gentle.
Hale Klishnaaaa
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
[QUOTE=smaranam;64157]Hare KrushNa
Shat praNAm
I know too he is right.i am just trying to expel his misunderstanding about advita and trying to bring connection and compatibility between both apparent philosophy.I love reading your posts, AnirvanJi, however, AnadiJi is right,
But meanwhile if aim for only butter,you are missing calcium,fats,proteins of the milk.this is exactly happens in kebala bhakti without jnana.the very self...swaroopananda is missed. you can"t be BISWA-PRANA.in my Gurudev"s words, becoming sweet and distributing one among infinite lives is the greatest
virtue a brahma-vid experiences. he simultaneously enjoys through infinite lives of the creation by becoming their heart and souls. this is the MAHANATA AND BISWA-PRANATA OF brahma-vid. if one compare with raganuga margi,later appears so selfish and narrow minded.they can"t undrestand what is biswa-prana and can never be a true servant of mankind.
but definitely brahma-vid misses butter.but question of sharing? they share the joy and pain of infinite creations,its lives for infinite period ,not by hearing or talking but by sitting on their hearts.
Is it not possible to drink water and also butter separately same time??? i always wanted both since my spiritual quest as i always wanted best ,and to me the best is tasting BOTH. this what my gurudev has attained and also asked humans to know the both truth of brahman,then only you can be complete.
and his teaching is-----Path of Gauranga,jnana of Shankara. with bhakti marga ,you can become combined Idol of Shankara-Gauranga.
jayaguru
Last edited by anirvan; 02 May 2011 at 12:42 AM.
Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.
My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.
[QUOTE=smaranam;64157]Hare KrushNa
------
Kindly clarify it,as i couldn"t understand it.Any modern-day keval advaita follower will tell you it is taboo to have "another pair of eyes to look into". Neither are you allowed to exist nor is BhagvAn. I did not know this myself
Too cuteI am not exactly dying to meet Rangadevi, Tungavidya, Jatila or Mukhara, but wiping out everything is too much.![]()
Mujhe bhi buttel khani hai,mujhe bhi mohana ke sath khelni hai,cilket.,chol-poolish,makhan chol ko pakelke Yashomati maiyaa ke pas le jani he...![]()
Ladhe Ladhe
Last edited by anirvan; 02 May 2011 at 12:49 AM.
Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.
My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.
Hare KrushNa
I look at this differently.
Actually, butter to milk is not the right anology. KrushNA IS in fact the source. In fact, if at all we want to look at it from jn~Ana POV, ghee is better - ghee is the Ultimate ESSENCE - it cannot get any purer. So KrushNa is the ghee, ESSENCE , ParamAtmA that pervades all. "GHEE - the highest sattva, is all-pervading in milk" (quote - NarayaN Maharaj) , and milk is the all-pervading BrahmaN.
So you see, impersonal brahman pervades all but Shri KrushNa ParamAtmA - the GHEE, is the ESSENCE of and origin of that brahmaN at the same time all-pervading that brahmaN' (now please let us not get into dairy process detailsbecause material process is the inverse upside down reflection of the spirtual)
sarvam idam khalvidam bramhaN'
and... the GHEE, the ESSENCE, the basis, the pratishthA of THAT bramhaN' is paramAtmA - Shri KrushNa.
bhahmANo hi pratishthA aham amrutasyAvyayasya cha
shAshvatasya cha dharmasya sukhasyaikAntikasya cha - BG 14.27
Verily I am the original foundation (prathishthhA) of the Ultimate Truth/ brahmaN and of eternal righteousness; of imperishable immortality and absolute transcendental bliss.
And prathishthhA of Truth is BhagvAn. He is the thhekedAr, care-taker of the Truth.
I am sorry to say - this is not correct understanding of Uttam AdhikAri bhaktas. What KrushNa actually means by jn~Ana is a pure bhakti.if one compare with raganuga margi,later appears so selfish and narrow minded.they can"t undrestand what is biswa-prana and can never be a true servant of mankind.
We have kanishthha adhikAri ("neophyte" - who sees KrushNa only in His Deity form) ,
madhyam adhikAri (who is one in spirit with devotees but discriminates among others) and
uttam adhikAri bhakta.
An uttam adhikAri sees VAsudev in all beings, in all jeev and jad, and all beings in VAsudev. They do not desire any siddhis whatsoever. This is why Radha runs to a dark Tamal tree thinking it is KrushNa.
They are indeed a big servant of mankind, because how can they NOT serve VAsudev who is in all mankind ?
How did they become uttam adhikAris ? KrushNa krupA of course, bhakta , santa krupA, following KrushNa's Words in Bhagvad Gita (which is enough jn~Ana complete in itself) and bhakti.
praNAm
Last edited by smaranam; 02 May 2011 at 04:50 PM. Reason: rephrased a sentence
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
[I Completely agree with this. Bhagvan is ghee.he is the essence and the cause of very existence of Brahman and creations. Milk is sweet/tasty because of existence Ghee inside. The Universe is created with the inspiration of this ghee.this ghee is the foundation of all bhava/emotions ,which is again the essence of universe,our relationship,mean9ing of life.QUOTE=smaranam;64249]Hare KrushNa
sarvam idam khalvidam bramhaN'
and... the GHEE, the ESSENCE, the basis, the pratishthA of THAT bramhaN' is paramAtmA - Shri KrushNa.
Concluding it,he taste himself(ghee taste ghee ) be becoming entire creation through Jiva,brukhsa etc,and again teste it more cosily,more intensely with dear bhaktas in Golak-vrindavan.
But I feel bad when one wrongly says that Bhagvan is first,Brahman originated from his body light and hence inferior. He is essential and existential reason of Brahman.like DNA of a Cell.
Secondly… Brahma-jnana or brahmaoplabdhi or brahmananda things. My intention was to show that without true brahmaolabdhi,one can”t be Viswa-prana,he can”t feel the atma and heart of entire creation/universe by becoming their soul.uttam adhikAri bhakta.
An uttam adhikAri sees VAsudev in all beings, in all jeev and jad, and all beings in VAsudev. They do not desire any siddhis whatsoever. This is why Radha runs to a dark Tamal tree thinking it is KrushNa.
Advitin Jnani expands his self in vedantic practices until his self consciousness engulf /merge consciousness of saguna,nirguana Brahman. Then he experience his eternal sachidananda self in each and every atoms of universe.He becomes one with BIRATA/bhuma or Brahman.so no body can ever become as broad and loving and can feel other”s pain/pleasure.so he is the greatest sevaka(same as bhagavan is greatest sevaka).
And Uttamadhikari bhakta definitely attains same state as above jnani. The difference in quality of jnana is that Bhakta sees Hari in each atoms,dust,trees,jiva and also inside self,jnani sees self atma in each atoms,jivas etc. AND THIS IS ADVITA JNANA OF BHAKTA.
ADVITA is foundation and bhakta realises it differently,so never admit it as by advitin.
THIS IS CALLED SWAROOP-JNANA LABHA IN BHAKTI PATHA.
Only subtle difference is that,bhakta attains this state without knowledge and conscious effort,neither he want to realize it consciously.he aims and transcends to bhagvan in bhava lok through this atma-jnana state without knowledge.
Realizing that same bhagavan is residing inside him clearly indicates he has realized atma-jnana.
Seva can only be performed between similar individual.Jiva can"t serve divine,jiva has to attain divinity to be able to serve divine. Bhagav only can serve bhagvan. And that’s why a BHAKTA CAN DO SEVA TO GOD BY BECOMING GOD.
This is my Gurudev”s Teachings to us.attain swaroop-jnana via bhakti.then being established in Swaroop,do the seva of bhagavan.here the swaroop will be antaschinta saria(nitya sevak). So how jiva is nitya sevak in swaroop.only after atma-jnana he will establish in swaroop.and that swaroop is nitya-sevak.
This is the speciality of My Gurudev”s truly universal,liberal teaching where there is no opposition between jnana,bhakti.shanka-gauranga are not two,but one. And there is no threat of jnana to bhakti.
The offencive attitude of Vaishnav towards Shankaracharya,jnana marga is rooted in tha fact thatjnana is existential threat to bhakti. But here we saw that true jnana is essential to establish True bhakti. Bhakti manifests with full bloom after jnana is realized,and that jnana is to realize directly(not indirectly) that Bhagaban is residing within us,inside every living,non-living and again has taken personal bhagabat form to accept our Seva.
This is what Bhagavan in Gita told to Arjuna that Jnani is my dearest/true bhakta,infact he is my ATMA.
This is the swaroop of my Guru,first he ascended into Advita brahamoplabdhi via synthetic path(sravan-manan-nididhyasan),and then descended via Bhava sadhna into Bhava lok. Then in his teaching asked to directly realize this Brahmajnana and Bhava-bhakti simultaneously via Bhakti marga.this is the best,ultimate sadhya.sadhana.
Jayaguru.
Last edited by anirvan; 04 May 2011 at 01:17 AM.
Man-naathah Shri Jagan-nathah Mat-guru-shri jagad-guruhu.
Mad-atma sarva-bhutatma tasmai Shri Gurave Namah.
My Lord is the Lord of Universe; My teacher is the teacher of the
entire universe; and my Self is the Self of all. My salutations at the lotus-feet
of such a Guru, who has revealed such knowledge to me.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks