Brahman to ISKCON?

[smaranam]

PraNAm AnirvanJi
Hare KrushNa

Several things:

There is nothing new being stated in the above post - What you are stating as advaita jnana of the bhakta is something that achintya-bheda-ABHEDA (ONENESS) always agreed upon, with some slight difference (i.e. everyone does not suddenly become God). JnAna of the Bhagvad Gita was NEVER in question. KrushNa's each and every word is sacred and central to bhakti. That jnAna is KrishNa Consciousness. Jnani = fully Krishna conscious person.

In short, we do not need Shankaracharya's bhasya if our ETERNAL Ishta is BhagvAn and Bhagvad prem.


Now, the question : Why is AdiShankara's philosophy considered an obstacle to shuddha bhakti ?

Following is my recent understanding of the VaishNav position on this (please note that i am only relating the observed VaishNav position as a reporter - not to be taken personally by anyone) :

Shankara's bhasya is for those who DENY the eternal form of BhagvAn as ETERNAL. Those who have no interest in eternal bhakti and look at Bhagvan/ Ishvar as temporal product of Maya. Ishvar/Bhagvan - same thing. For the Keval Advaitin ANY form is maya and material in nature - not just Kshirodakshayi Vishnu. The phrase "eternal transcendental spiritual form" is not in their dictionary.

Now you want graduates of this school to enter Krushna-Leela ?

Who is going to rescue them from the nirvikalpa samadhi in BrmhaJyoti ? THEY CANNOT RESCUE THEMSELVES, THEY DO NOT EVEN WISH TO BE RESCUED .
BHAGVAN HIMSELF OR A PURE DEVOTEE THAT TOO BY HIS GRACE AND WISH CAN RESCUE THEM AND BRING THEM INTO LEELA KSHETRA. e.g. your Parampujya Gurudev was rescued by his Gurumaa, Ramkrishna PAramhans by Kali Maa - note: Ramkrishna was not a keval advaitin, he was madly devoted to KAli BEFORE going into nirvikalpa.

So, unless one wins Bhagvad lottery for rescue, one has to DEVELOP love for Bhagvan and that is by going the PURE bhakti marg - not bhakti as ahaMgrhopasana or as a means to an end.

Unless one is a born mahabhagvat (like Adi Shankaracharya) one cannot jump from SOHAM to DAS-ANUDASOHAM without intevention of Bhagvan or His pure devotee. KrushNa gives free will. Why should He bring one into His association if all they want is "I AM THAT" ? And especially if they don't even believe in His form ??

Rather than making ISKCON or VaishNavs the scapegoat, why not take it up with Lord Chaitanya Himself whose instructions are being followed by the VaishNavs :

"Mayavadi bhasya sunile sarvanash." - Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu

It was Forbidden for those on the path of bhakti just as peanuts are forbidden for those with peanut allergy. Because the bhakti marg is complete in itself.

Uttam adhikaris are also content with seeing VAsudev as the Paramatma in every jeev - this is Parmatma realization, this is not equating everything to bhagvan.
Seeing Brahman-consciousness pervading all - this is Bhrahman realization - this is a STEP in Vaishnav Dharma.

NEXT and FINAL step is Bhagvan realization.

So it is not that bhaktas bypass Brahman realization, it is a side effect of bhakti - by grace of Bhagvan.

----

This is what i was told when i asked.

*** I hope i have not offended anyone as the intention was to be objective only. If i have, i beg your forgiveness. ***

Radhe KrushNa

praNAm

[anirvan]

In short, we do not need Shankaracharya's bhasya if our ETERNAL Ishta is BhagvAn and Bhagvad prem.
Shankara's bhasya is for those who DENY the eternal form of BhagvAn as ETERNAL. Those who have no interest in eternal bhakti and look at Bhagvan/ Ishvar as temporal product of Maya. Ishvar/Bhagvan - same thing. For the Keval Advaitin ANY form is maya and material in nature - not just Kshirodakshayi Vishnu. The phrase "eternal transcendental spiritual form" is not in their dictionary.

Pranam paramasnehaspada smaranamji,

Adi Shankar never wanted or gone to debate and convert bisudha bhakta to bring into his fold .he was the one of highest category bhakta himself. he established the base/foundation of sanatan dharma...the advita. one has to graduate after finishing foundation course.but not drag back a already graduate to sit in UG class.and again we shouldn"t identify Adishankar with ego-centered aham-brahmasmi cheats.

Second thing...human race is diverse,every one different from others,with different needs,different faith system.

if we indian hindu can"t understand and respect Adi Shankar who had spent each breath for sanatandharma and our upliftment,then there something lacking in us to be a true lover.

Who is going to rescue them from the nirvikalpa samadhi in BrmhaJyoti ? THEY CANNOT RESCUE THEMSELVES, THEY DO NOT EVEN WISH TO BE RESCUED

.

Even brahman-nirvan is achieved by grace of same guru or bhagavan.because any sadhna...be yoga,tantra,jnana can take kundalini and consciousness upto ANJA CHAKRA,beyond it its only KRIPA. nirvikalpa is entirely Guru/bhagavn kripa. if one stage is achieved by his kripa,why not next step???

Unless one is a born mahabhagvat (like Adi Shankaracharya) one cannot jump from SOHAM to DAS-ANUDASOHAM without intevention of Bhagvan or His pure devotee.

Again same answer.If bhakti is flowing inside,even if in dried stage,once aham becomes fulfilled with brahman-chetna,the river will become alive...spontaneously.

sat is there always.once chit is realized,does Anand swaroop will be far away?
chit and ananda are two form of same substance.

"Mayavadi bhasya sunile sarvanash." - Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu
It was Forbidden for those on the path of bhakti just as peanuts are forbidden for those with peanut allergy. Because the bhakti marg is complete in itself.

If best things are on offer,why go for good thing? Mahaprabhu has come to bless us supreme purusartha,which fool should go searching other places?
and if coked food is on plate,why go to vegetable market and then cook?

U

ttam adhikaris are also content with seeing VAsudev as the Paramatma in every jeev - this is Parmatma realization, this is not equating everything to bhagvan.

This is not correct statement.when bhakta sees bhagban everywhere,he not only see it in jivas,but also in yamuna"s flow,tamal bana,kali megha,morning lilly,setting sun....anything,anywhere.and become bhavonmada. he can see his syamasundar anywhere.it"s not brahman,paramatma .its bhagvan.

Exclusive paramtma realization happens in ASAMPRNJATA SAMADHI.
Exclusive brahman realization happens in Nirvikalpa/nirvija samadhi.
Exclusive bhagvan realization happens in Bhaba-samadhi.

So it is not that bhaktas bypass Brahman realization, it is a side effect of bhakti - by grace of Bhagvan.

thats why its called :mukti is dasi of bhakti.bhakta never ask or intends but it comes spontaneously before bhava opens completely into him as byproduct.

[SIZE="3"][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]*** I hope i have not offended anyone as the intention was to be objective only.

A true vashnav and krishna kripa dhanya like you can"t offend anyone,you can only bless adhams like us.

pranam

Harekrishna

[anirvan]

Now, the question : Why is AdiShankara's philosophy considered an obstacle to shuddha bhakti ?


Ramkrishna PAramhans by Kali Maa - note: Ramkrishna was not a keval advaitin, he was madly devoted to KAli BEFORE going into nirvikalpa.

So kindly explain why Ramakrishna did jnana sadhna? since he has started sadhna with passionate love of Maa Kali,he was virtually living with the mother,then why Maa asked to do 64 yogini sadhna of tantra?

Then he gained savikalpa jnana(jnana of one brahmanda). then again with instruction of Maa,he undergone vedantik sannyas initiation under GurU Totapuri
and then Nirvikalpa samadhi to attain brahma sajujya--the jnana of entire creation(infinite brahmanda) along with nirguna brahman?

And then his real Bhava sadhna started.

Its not easy to be uttamadhikari.one in a billion is also rare. and real bhava starts only after atma-jnana. when you dont know the swaroop of bhagvan,swaroop of self,where is question of love???

A animal can"t love and do proper seva to a human.similarly a emotionally mad human can"t do real seva of bhagvan.he has to ascend to that stature to be level with bhagvan,then he can understand what is bhagban. he has to be as broad,liberal,as gig as bhagvan to be able to start a relationship.

Even for a normal matrimony,similar status,thinking,education are required for a succesful marriage.

Without brahma-jnana,most of so called vaishnav only hallucinates,as your continuous thought cause a illusory world according to your thought.it can"t be bhava/darshan.

Again examples of DHRUVA,PRAHLAD are there.after their bhagvat darshan,why then they did vedanta jnana sadhna,then became brahma-vid and then they ascended to bhava? thses are too with order from bhagvan only.

Jayaguru

[smaranam]

PraNAm AnirvanJi

You know what is funny - there isn't a total disagreement as such, and readers are probably wondering ... so.. what's the point.

Is this Leela or what ?

I don't have a lot of time but let's see...

again we shouldn"t identify Adishankar with ego-centered aham-brahmasmi cheats.

No one does that. The most accused (you know who) also consider him as an avatAr of Shambhu Shankar.

Second thing...human race is diverse,every one different from others,with different needs,different faith system.

Of course.

if we indian hindu can"t understand and respect Adi Shankar who had spent each breath for sanatandharma and our upliftment,then there something lacking in us to be a true lover.

Who is disrespecting him ? I was impressed. I thought the question was why VaishNavs find his philosophy unfavorable for bhakti - and you seem to agree.

Even brahman-nirvan is achieved by grace of same guru or bhagavan. nirvikalpa is entirely Guru/bhagavn kripa. if one stage is achieved by his kripa,why not next step??? If bhakti is flowing inside,even if in dried stage,once aham becomes fulfilled with brahman-chetna,the river will become alive...spontaneously.

IF bhakti is flowing. Because KrushNa gives free will.

** You may be surprised to hear that i had the same questions like you more than a year ago - and my heart would go all out to those respected vedantins, scientific thinkers, whenmayavad and mayavadis were condemnded - There is a whole thread i can show you. I don't want to bring it here, but here is a section of what i wrote to them back then:

"me: Also, neither the scriptures nor Adi Shankaracharya define what happens exactly after liberation , be it jivanmukti or videhamukti , whether there is bhakti or not. It is left open for the experience of the seeker.
We do not know for sure that the liberated Jnanis are dormant in BrahmaJyoti, or what they do after videhamukti.
Nor do we know what state bhaktas reach later on, and whom they merge into -
Nanda , Yashoda, Rupa , Lalita
Uddhav, Satyabhama , Hanuman, Sita
(or Radha - why not ? Whose mood do we think Jaydev was in ? )

So, at the highest Parmarthik level, Bhakti and Jnana are not really seperate, it is illusion to think they are.
....
..
GV: This 'merging' is a state of ecstasy, not a real merging

me: Of Course So its OK for devotees to be in the mood of Radha, and jnanis to be in the mood of Brahman' "

and the thread went on.

If best things are on offer,why go for good thing? Mahaprabhu has come to bless us supreme purusartha,which fool should go searching other places? and if coked food is on plate,why go to vegetable market and then cook?

You are agreeing that there is no need to go via Shankar bhasya if one comes across Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. SO What is the whole argument about ? There is NO Argument

when bhakta sees bhagban everywhere,he not only see it in jivas,but also in yamuna"s flow,tamal bana,kali megha,morning lilly,setting sun....anything,anywhere.and become bhavonmada. he can see his syamasundar anywhere.it"s not brahman,paramatma .its bhagvan.

Agree completely,

Yamuna madhura, vicci madhura, salilam kamalam hrudayam gamanam gopi gavo gunja mAlA pushpa ........
madhurAdhipater akhilam madhuram - MadhurAshtak - this shows Vallabhacharya's beautiful bhAv.

A true vashnav and krishna kripa dhanya like you can"t offend anyone,you can only bless adhams like us.

I don't deserve such kind words that you keep repeating. May Shri KrushNa continue to bless you and everyone.
Although the words will not affect me since KrushNa is merciful, yet... sakhiyon ka ego dAv pe lagAna acchi baat nahi hai.

Its not easy to be uttamadhikari.one in a billion is also rare. and real bhava starts only after atma-jnana. when you dont know the swaroop of bhagvan,swaroop of self,where is question of love???

TRUE, but not all that rare either. Pure devotees, uttam adhikaris come down to madhyam adhikari level to be an acharya.

Without brahma-jnana,most of so called vaishnav only hallucinates,as your continuous thought cause a illusory world according to your thought.it can"t be bhava/darshan.

No comments


praNAm

MadhurAdhipater akhilam madhuram

[anirvan]

Now, the question : Why is AdiShankara's philosophy considered an obstacle to shuddha bhakti ?

Now i will conclude this thread with above question as this is the point that makes a bhakta irritate with jnana,as they afraid that it may steal away the bhakti.and offence is best defence ...the start offence

Adishankara"s philosophy is not a obstacle to bhakti.the jnana is not obstacle to bhakti.

ITS DEZIRE FOR MOKHSA THAT IS THE OBSTACLE TO BHAKTI,NOT JNANA ITSELF !!!

"LOVE AND KNOWLEDGE ARE NOT TWO NATURALLY EXCLUSIVE FACULTIES.LOVE IS THE CULMINATING POINT IN A SERIES OF WHICH KNOWLEDGE IS THE LAST STAGE BUT ONE "
ONLY WITH BHAKTI,JNANA AND PARABHAKTI CAN BE SURELY ACHIEVED.

This is what i learnt from my Gurudev.this is what Viveakananda has said in devavani,and also by Ramakrishna pramahansa.
Bhakti is based upon pure unconditional love.so if anything,even mokhsa,even milanechha with krishna is not compatible with love.love is pure giving.if a bhakta receives anything from bhagvan,then his bhakti get paid.so why bhagvan will be indebted to him?so as such jnana ichha is not obstacle,but the very purpose of mokhsa is a obstacle.

Bhagvan was testing your humility through me ,so he has already stopped these exam after your passing with flying colour.

See Mahaprabhu was parambrahman bhagvan himself,when bhagvan come to a sadhaka,sadhaka will throw his all sadhna and surrender at bhagban"s feet.same thing happened in chaitanyavtar.so why anymore dry jnana exercise?so everybody surrender at his lotus feet including prakasananda etc.

jnana se unhe jana ja sakta hai,par dil nahi bharta hai,unhe dil se lagake chumne se his prana saant ho jati hai hamesha keliya.

pranam

Jai radhamohan

[grames]

Dear Smaranam,

A fantastic and top class message with choice of complete words. Amazed and this post of you should be read, understood with great passion and open mind. All are Krshna's grace and reading from your fingers is our luck.

Hare Krshna!

[smaranam]

Dear GramesJi

Your certificate on post #11 makes me delighted like a kindergartner receiving a prize. The words flow by KrushNa's Grace no doubt , but just see His Mercy, He partly distributes it via others too - like my 'Theistic Philosopher' mentor-guide GramesJi

I don't have to remind you of our conversations from time to time - mostly initiated by you with "smaranam, what are you doing ?!" The ratna-jewels that you added to my jholi in the form of knowledge, as well as by my other [shiksha] gurus - along with what KrushNa provides - has been all combined here.

Your humility is inspiring - always staying in the background and supplying the necessary.

Hare KrushNa

many praNAms

[smaranam]

Hare KrushNa

Just one last point:

Its not easy to be uttamadhikari.one in a billion is also rare.

Uttam Adhikaris are not all that rare in todays world also. They may be hidden from view. One has to be qualified for KrushNa to bring them in touch with an uttam adhikari.

Most of the times an uttam adhikari , if not secluded in a far off place, hides the adhikar and comes down to the level of madhyam adhikAri to be an AchArya, share vidyA. Basically they are pure devotees (see qualities of pure devotees)
This is because an uttam adhikari cannot really be a formal acharya and interact with many people at their level - since it is essential to apply discrimination for the sake of others, and uttam adhikaris as we know cannot discriminate.

This is why Mahaprabhu (Chaitanya) hardly preached, left nothing except the ShikshAshtak in writing. It was all His Leela that associates observed and soaked in, and in fact had to take care of Him when He would fall unconscious or almost drown in Bay of Bengal thinking it is the YamunA.

Haridas Thakur kept chanting mahamantra, and is the NAmAcharya.

Here is a good post about BhaktisiddhAnta Saraswati Thakrur's article:

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/h...i-sadguru.html

He says, the uttam adhikari is there, it is rare to find people willing to serve them. Being a shishya is also an adhikar.

praNAm

[anirvan]

Most of the times an uttam adhikari , if not secluded in a far off place, hides the adhikar and comes down to the level of madhyam adhikAri to be an AchArya, share vidyA. Basically they are pure devotees (see qualities of pure devotees)
This is because an uttam adhikari cannot really be a formal acharya and interact with many people at their level - since it is essential to apply discrimination for the sake of others, and uttam adhikaris as we know cannot discriminate.

Because that condition is not practically suitable to to stay in society.and next to imposible to teach.but those who has that ability to control the bhava by atma-shakti and sadhna can become comlete normal human and come to be as a teacher.

The fact is the highest bhava and even brahmachetna,both are turiyatita nirguna state,and nirguna state is beyond mind-body.to be able to teach a human with mind,body...that is saguna,one has to become saguna...descnding down.

Thats why Guruchakra is just below sahasrara chakra.parambrahman himself descends down from nirguna to become saguna in order to be able to teach for Jivoddhar.

This is why Mahaprabhu (Chaitanya) hardly preached,

He came to teach by practice for entire world,not as a sadguru/teacher to individual.this is the difference between a sadguru and avtar.

Avatar comes for entire generation,so they spread a new bhava,new knowledge.Its sadguru who implement this new bhava in individual life by teaching aswell also showing by practice.

[Tirisilex]

I still do not understand what Brahma is. Is Brahma Spiritual reality and Maya Material reality? I'm so lost on this..