Which is the greater power and in terms of importance?

[NayaSurya]

E.M. As many times before, you bring the word to summon my post. I posted this answer in a mail to Upsy prior to your post and you did not know what I had written, but again you post this word which was at the core of my own advice. So I will paste the email from 6est yesterday morning to add to this conversation.

1.)Love, bhakti, bliss, etc.
2.)righteousness, path to attain knowledge etc.
3.)Knowledge = To know the truth.
4.)Thought = Tool to obtain knowledge.
5.)The truth, the thinker, pure consciousness.

I have 2 simple questions.......
1.) Which is the greatest in terms of power and superiority?
2.) Which is more important for the soul to obtain? (This is a tough one for me)

Hi<3
As everyone had done such a good job here, I had not come until you mention. But, I will try my best to add something hopefully usefull.





1. Truth- For this one thing allows us to attain knowledge and rests in righteousness.

2. The answer can not be Truth here, as each of us...from the moment we were pulled from Beloved Shiva has possessed this, only has been hidden on purpose for us to continue working here.

The power which has been so important to me is Clarity.

Clarity, to discriminate the Truth from ego driven emotion come from many practices. It is this clarity that is crucial to process this Truth in this gross physical manifestation of a body.

It can be found with bhakti, can be brought through meditation, can be stumbled upon in weaving...can be finely tuned with Yoga. Like a metal detector to our hidden treasure...we uncover it.

Do you feel that the existance of bhakti in a persons heart proves he has knowledge? If so, this confuses me again, because, both knowledgible (old aged saints) and the innocent (children) show equal amounts of bhakti (infinite). Or is it that bhakti is brought by righteousness and inturn grants knowledge?

The reason both have such equal bhakti is that the Truth is resident in both equally...and a child in this state of pure clarity can tap into it very easily.

We are the knower of this Truth, eternally.<3
Final question-
I would like to ask 1 thing, isn't clarity of thought due to knowledge?

Not from my perspective. How many time have I seen a smoker read the side of the warning and yet light up. What we know, and do are often contradictory.

For me, clarity comes from our spiritual practices. It is the place where the ideas become concrete strong. As it's one thing to know that we are We...and read it in this forum written by the wise.

It is something completely different to Know we are We. By action We can prove this.

My husband has a brain problem called Aspergers. He is genius smart. But the thoughts are all jumbled together into great lumps of garbage. When you can not think one truth but everything all at once it is useless.

So he meditates and becomes still...and then great clarity to sift through this mass of good and bad things is finally able to happen. This gives him tremendous relief.

He knew the things as we speak of them for hours each day...but to truly process and absorb the information...to find that certain clarity.

The answers above come from this portion and its perspective, I am sure every answer above is 100% true as these questions are so dynamic.

[jasdir]

1.) Which is the greatest in terms of power and superiority?

"Love" is greater than everything.

2.) Which is more important for the soul to obtain? (This is a tough one for me)

As there is Sea and drop.
As there is Love and soul.

In human body the most important goal for the soul to abtain is "TO GET RID FROM MIND", so that she could get back into its SEA --- means LOVE or GOD.

_/\_ Jasdir.

[anirvan]

How to identify yourself with the Lord. Yes, that question is even trickier. I'm not sure I got your point entirely, but all life forms, most of them without the reflexive capability, aren't them caring for God?

My point was how one person will know that God his his only own one,more dearer that own self,then only he will be able to love him naturally?its with conscious knowledge of serving to lord that will liberate us from rebirth inti his leela. And the only answer is KNOWLEDGE. knowledge is nothing but consciousness/awareness.without this awareness we are jada/dead/tamah personified.

I feel incomplete. I feel the joy of being incomplete, that's why I seek. You only notice ignorance after you acquire knowledge and after you acquire it you can even question: How was I able to live without knowing this? It seems like it was always part of me. It seems like a puzzle. It can all be just a lila, the most clever one.

One becomes complete after knowledge.all question,all confusion will dissapear.all karma,all results,all the things happening to you will appear as movie scenes on a background and you will develop 100&#37; trust on praravdha,so pain,pleasure will appear same.there is no question of incompleteness.and Divya ananda,divya prema will appear as Tides in one"s heart.if its not happening then we should take it as our incomplete knowledge and pursue with more vigor.

There is no more pure things as knowledge in entire brahman.its with knowledge the universe is created,being sustained.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

One becomes complete after knowledge.all question,all confusion will dissapear.all karma,all results,all the things happening to you will appear as movie scenes on a background and you will develop 100&#37; trust on praravdha,so pain,pleasure will appear same.there is no question of incompleteness.and Divya ananda,divya prema will appear as Tides in one"s heart.if its not happening then we should take it as our incomplete knowledge and pursue with more vigor.

There is no more pure things as knowledge in entire brahman.its with knowledge the universe is created,being sustained.

This is probably the most accurate post in this thread. This arrow (post) has hit the target of discussion perfectly, but I needed an arrow to pierce through this discussion right into its core, but that's a bit too much too ask .

Jasdirji, I would like to tell you one thing.

Truth is the supreme in my view, because....
1.)It does not alter with time (so does love)
2.)It is independent of everything (so is love)
3.)Truth can't be influenced by any power (love is influenced by knowledge and vise verse).

To everyone,

I really loved everyone's opinions in this thread, but the discussion hasn't reached a 'conclusion post' and I have a doubt now in the second question of the initiator post. I think the important thing to achieve is not these 6.
I feel evolution is the key to reach the truth, but evolution requires, thought, knowledge, love, righteousness, etc.

Most of all, we need a power that keeps all of these tied together with the truth. something like ether that keeps the remaining four of pancha butas together. Something which not only depends on thought, knowledge, love and righteousness, but also must influence them as well, so as to promote us to 'pure conscious beings'. From thinking in this direction, I have stumbled upon the word, 'pragnya' in sanskrith (actually, I found it in my mother tongue kannada, while using it in a conversation). I wish I knew the english equivalent for this word. Pragnya is really what keeps these together. Without pragnya, the existence of thought as well as righteousness is not possible, without pragnya, knowledge cannot be experienced and may withdraw itself, just like a touch me not plant withdraws its leaves when touched and this pushes us back to the state of being of animosity. Without pragnya, the love we have in our hearts may be misguided just like what happened to Dritarashtra (Father of Kauravas). So, enabling ourselves to obtain a refined pragnya is very important. This is achievable by gaining proper samskaras through righteousness, right thought, right action, knowledge, love and right associationship. The word pragnya may be equivalent to the word 'conscious' as I have used them in same contexts many times. Also, ichha is as important as pragnya and functions under the influence of the 4 and influences these four.

I just need posts from the readers as verification to my theory , just in case I'm still ignorant in this topic. I wouldn't take chances.


To NayaSurya,
Are clarity of thought and pragnya the same? I am asking this question assuming that you know the meaning of 'pragnya'.


I thank everyone, from the bottom of my heart who have taken part or read this thread.

To smaranam, (a reply to a post ending in page 2)
I'm happy you were concerned about my karma yoga (studies), but the funny part is, I posted the first post of this thread 2 weeks after writing my CET exams. Yea, I got that a lot from my parents and friends during 3 of my academic careers, but no need to worry, because I'm thinking of getting my karma pragnya more refined. Its good to have friends who nag me and show me the right path . Post appreciated smaranamji. Thanks.

[jasdir]

Jasdirji, I would like to tell you one thing.

Truth is the supreme in my view, because....
1.)It does not alter with time (so does love)
2.)It is independent of everything (so is love)
3.)Truth can't be influenced by any power (love is influenced by knowledge and vise verse).

Ok... which thing brought you here for discussions on this forum means: on HDF ???

• Truth
• Love for truth

Honestly....

_/\_ Jasdir.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

This particular post is only for you jasdirji, hoping that I'd clear my views, I think that we may be having a communication gap.

Ok... which thing brought you here for discussions on this forum means: on HDF ???

• Truth
• Love for truth

Honestly....

_/\_ Jasdir.

Nice, straight forward question. You know the answer, it's Love to know the truth, at the same time its the influence of truth (prachodanam from gayathri mantra). I kept debating with a friend of mine that Righteousness is greater than love, with love for righteousness. I used to think righteousness was supreme in terms of power and potency, but my friend argued it was love. Then I came across the potentials of truth and declared to myself that truth was the greatest in terms of potency (The first question is not which is greater, but it is to know which has more potential).

But, when I searched for an answer for 'Which is greater amongst these?'
I stumbled upon the question number 2. (You may be wondering why I posed the first question, its just to be sure).

There are 3 types of people;
1. Those who use logic (the brains)
2. Those who use the artistic part of the brain (the heart)
3. Those who use both and also make an experimental analysis to be sure and arrive at an intellectual conclusion

I like to be the 3rd type. You see.

If you'd debate that love is greater, you're welcome, but if you doubt the potentials of truth over love, then I'm not going to continue with that discussion there, because it is something to be experienced and not to be spoken about (just like advaitha). It is not only me who believes truth is the most potential, even Shankaracharya says, 'That which is known as the "truth" is called god.' This is because truth has most characters of god. If you still insist that love is supreme, then there is one possibility: Love itself is the supreme truth (god). If you'd like, you can convince me with this.

So, coming to the second question, I'd hope that you'd see my previous post. I had come to a conclusion in a reply to everyone (everyone = everyone who came across this topic) that love, righteousness, thought and knowledge all are equals, need each other and need pragnya with ichha to help us reach that ultimate devine personality.

I'm still not sure whether I'm clear to you and I hope that you read this post.

Thank you for being patient with my views . The problem with me is that, I can't blindly accept anything, I need intellectual (if not scientific and logical) proofs for every answer. If I don't that would make me a blind lover and that could be dangerous for me.

[jasdir]

If you'd debate that love is greater, you're welcome, but if you doubt the potentials of truth over love, then I'm not going to continue with that discussion there, because it is something to be experienced and not to be spoken about (just like advaitha). It is not only me who believes truth is the most potential, even Shankaracharya says, 'That which is known as the "truth" is called god.' This is because truth has most characters of god. If you still insist that love is supreme, then there is one possibility: Love itself is the supreme truth (god). If you'd like, you can convince me with this.

One thread for you here: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6750

Thank you for being patient with my views . The problem with me is that, I can't blindly accept anything, I need intellectual (if not scientific and logical) proofs for every answer. If I don't that would make me a blind lover and that could be dangerous for me.

Well.. this is also true, that it is dangerous to play love

Guru nanak has written in one of his famous quotes:

"Je tu pream khealon ko chou, sirr dhar tali gali meri aou "
English: " If you want to play the game of love, than come in my street with your head on your hand "

There is also one hindi film dialog, i don't know from where they have taken, but am sure that it is also the language of saints.

" Ishq khel nahin hai bacchon ka, iss main teal nikal jata hai acche acchon ka "
English: " Love is not a child's play, even masters gets fail on this path "

_/\_ Jasdir

[smaranam]

Namaste,

UpsyDowny's words are in blue:

I wish I knew the english equivalent for this word. Pragnya is really what keeps these together.

PradnyA : From Dictionary
knowledge, understanding, *insight*, [intuitive] wisdom is pradnyA

Without pragnya, the love we have in our hearts may be misguided just like what happened to Dritarashtra (Father of Kauravas). So, enabling ourselves to obtain a refined pragnya is very important. This is achievable by gaining proper samskaras through righteousness, right thought, right action, knowledge, love and right associationship.
The word pragnya may be equivalent to the word 'conscious' as I have used them in same contexts many times.

NOW you are speaking because guess what this 'conscious' is ? Just put Kamalnayan Murlidhar ShyAmsundar before that word - you get "KRshNa Conscious" or "God Conscious"

" Also, ichha is as important as pragnya and functions under the influence of the 4 and influences these four."

And this ICCHAA is Divine Desire of Parmeshwar.
raso vai sah (Isha Upanishad / IshOpanishad). HE has desires and by His mere thinking of them they manifest - this is ICCHA shakti of BhagvAn.

---

"3. Those who use both and also make an experimental analysis to be sure and arrive at an intellectual conclusion
I like to be the 3rd type. You see."

Which is fine. KrushNa wants us to understand the Bhagvad Gita. at the end of the day , what does Shankaracharya say ? "Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam ..."
So, if you take the heart route , Bhaja Govindam
If you take the head route, Bhaja Govindam

Also, when heart overrules head, the intuition (wisdom) that is churned up = pradnyA

"If you still insist that love is supreme, then there is one possibility: Love itself is the supreme truth (god). If you'd like, you can convince me with this."

You just said it yourself - Love itself is the Supreme Truth (God)

As i said before, the word "love" is heavily misused. Our world is topsy-turvey / upsydowny remember ? the inverted reflection of the spiritual tree. So prem (pure love) reflects into the material world as kaam (lust) - which is a broad word for ANY desire attached to the body or false self. Desire for false honor/prestige/fame is all kaam.

prem - spiritual ; kaam - material
prem - selfless ; kaam - selfish
prem - akhanda ; kaam - adhura
prem - never diminishing ; kaam - ever diminishing,the more you fulfill
prem - santushta ; kaam - asantushta (always dissatisfied)
prem - divine ; kaam - Asuric

Absolute Truth = KrushNa
Absolute Prem = RAdhA
Truth = Sat (Existence) + Chit (pradnyA) + Anand (bliss)
Radha = KrushNa , so Prem must be Truth ?
infinity + infinity = infinity
Radha + ShyAm = Radhe ShyAm

but who am i to say anything...

[smaranam]

...So here is some fun for everyone (at least on this thread): The Gopis explain to Uddhav What is Prem :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srz82LGs7Xg

KrushNa sends Uddhav to Braj dhaam (VrundAvan) with a secret agenda - to instill bhakti in him - like the Gopis.

GOPIS SING:
"Hey Uddhav, tie up that BramhagyAn to a tree for a few days. Stay in Braj dhaam for some days and learn from us about Prem ...
If impersonal Brahma-jnAna is the salty ocean, prem is the sweet water of the Yamuna river

What kind of a God would that be (Impersonal Brahman') Who cannot come knocking at our door, Who cannot steal our butter, Who cannot make us pine in His seperation, Who cannot tease and trouble us ( break our pots , collect toll )..."

Gopis define Prem as a dumb person (unable to speak) eating guD (sweet jaggery) and happy from within but cannot describe the taste.

Then they introduce him to Radharani who is sitting still in seperation of KrushNa.

Uddhav is T r a n s f o r m e d.

KrushNa's job is done.

Jai Shri KrushNa hare murAre he nAth nArAyaNa vAsudeva ~

[smaranam]

Namaste,

This morning, by sudden instinct i picked up BG As It Is (after a very long time) from the shelf and sat in front of BAl Mukundam. As He looked on ... opened the book randomly, it was on the 34th verse of Chap 13 - Kshetra-Kshetradnya Yog ! - was that coincidence ? Not to me.

BG 13.34:yathā prakāśayaty ekaḥ
kṛtsnaḿ lokam imaḿ raviḥ
kṣetraḿ kṣetrī tathā kṛtsnaḿ
prakāśayati bhārata

BG 13.35: Those who see with eyes of knowledge the difference between the body and the knower of the body, and can also understand the process of liberation from bondage in material nature, attain to the supreme goal.

Then my eyes automatically went to the purport of verse 35 by Shrila Prabhupad:

"The purport of this Thirteenth Chapter is that one should know the distinction between the body, the owner of the body, and the Supersoul. One should recognize the process of liberation, as described in verses eight through twelve. Then one can go on to the supreme destination."

See how Dearest MohanA as antaryAmi, SuperSoul, directs - (this time thru' PrabhupAd). He does it all the time - we just have to listen - so let us go to BG 13.8-12. What does it say ?

BG 13.8-12: Humility; pridelessness; nonviolence; tolerance; simplicity; approaching a bona fide spiritual master; cleanliness; steadiness; self-control; renunciation of the objects of sense gratification; absence of false ego; the perception of the evil of birth, death, old age and disease; detachment; freedom from entanglement with children, wife, home and the rest; even-mindedness amid pleasant and unpleasant events; constant and unalloyed devotion to Me; aspiring to live in a solitary place; detachment from the general mass of people; accepting the importance of self-realization; and philosophical search for the Absolute Truth — all these I declare to be knowledge, and besides this whatever there may be is ignorance.

So, this is pradnyA. The Lord says whatever I have stated in BG 13.8-12 is knowledge as well as the way to acquire wisdom. Everything else is ignorance.

He uses the words : mayi cānanya-yogena bhaktir avyabhicāriṇī in 13.11

So avyabhichari bhakti is the way to go.
mayi — unto Me; ca — also; ananya-yogena — by unalloyed devotional service; bhaktiḥ — devotion; avyabhicāriṇī — without any break;

BAlam Mukundam manasA smarAmi ~

praNAm