Which is the greater power and in terms of importance?

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

1.)Love, bhakti, bliss, etc.
2.)righteousness, path to attain knowledge etc.
3.)Knowledge = To know the truth.
4.)Thought = Tool to obtain knowledge.
5.)The truth, the thinker, pure consciousness.

I have 2 simple questions.......
1.) Which is the greatest in terms of power and superiority?
2.) Which is more important for the soul to obtain? (This is a tough one for me)

I have been thinking about it for days and going in circles, mostly it seemed that Truth was superior to everything else in terms of power. But, I felt it is more important to have knowledge, then I felt the path was important, then I felt the tool was. Wait...... While typing this thread, I feel 'truth' is the answer for both. Anyway, lets discuss this. For a sec, these seemed like 5 faces of Ishvara. Its all too complex. The question itself may seem confusing to many. Submit your opinions, lets debate about each others' opinions, please, I feel this is quite 'fun' and 'useful'. I recall a similar argument between Yudhistira, Bheema and Arjuna, each were arguing Dharma, Kama and Artha respectively were superior to others. But, this question is much different from the other.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam upsy: The answer is dependent on where you are on the path to moksha. All are important. But telling a 3 year old to restrain from using drugs in invalid or irrelevant.

Knowledge in and of itself is useless without its application, whom some might term wisdom.

The truth as you defined it is beyond most of us, yet it is the ultimate goal for all of us.

Righteousness or doing right is grounded in wisdom, and it also has to be 'right' wisdom.

In my particular narrow view of Hinduism, there is only one constant for all practitioners, and that's bhakti. No matter where you are on the path, once you've stepped on it, made th erealisation that searching is in your nature, then bhakti is the constant.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

2.) Which is more important for the soul to obtain?.

What is there to be obtained? The wise tell us we are fullness itself, bhūman. It is when I think I am less, then something needs to be attained. This is the human experience.

Where then is the answer - it is not in the attainment me thinks, but in the realization of who one is, then there are no doubts.

praṇām

words

bhūman - fullness, abundance , plenty , wealth , opulence , multitude , majority

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Yajvanji, I may have been incompetent in putting forth my question no. 2....
In question 2, when I asked which is more important, I meant to ask which is more essential for any soul to gain more and more. Thank you.

[upsydownyupsy mv ss]

Vannakkam upsy: The answer is dependent on where you are on the path to moksha. All are important. But telling a 3 year old to restrain from using drugs in invalid or irrelevant.

Knowledge in and of itself is useless without its application, whom some might term wisdom.

The truth as you defined it is beyond most of us, yet it is the ultimate goal for all of us.

Righteousness or doing right is grounded in wisdom, and it also has to be 'right' wisdom.

In my particular narrow view of Hinduism, there is only one constant for all practitioners, and that's bhakti. No matter where you are on the path, once you've stepped on it, made th erealisation that searching is in your nature, then bhakti is the constant.

Aum Namasivaya

Sir, I can't seem to agree with 'bhakti' to be the constant. I don't know what hinduism has to say, but buddhism says, a person aquires nirbana only when he eliminates full ignorance (or by attaining complete knowledge, both are same) and not just by 'bhakti.' I'd also like to tell you that I'm talking in general terms, 'love'. Still, I'll give you the example of Ravana. Ramayana shows us that he was a great devotee of god and what not, but he had performed many misdeeds of ravaging many kingdoms and running behind the lust of women. Did devotion come to his rescue? No, how can it for all his sins? It was justice which killed Ravana. Even though he had knowledge and love, it was all in vain, because he was nor righteous and chose the path of injustice.

We all know what the jihadi leaders do.... They misintepret and misguide the innocent youth, even though the youth may have devotion to 'allah' or 'god', they sadly fail in life to understand whats correct and suffer by doing the wrong thing. Love is useless without knowledge, for I give u another example from Mahabharatha. We all know how much the blind father loved his sons, the Kauravas, and let them do whatever they liked, and what did they do? Injustice and ultimately had to pay the ultimate price. Had the king listened to his brother Vidhura and Krishna, he could have prevented the war, those pearls of wisdom were not desired by the king and did not obtain any knowledge and failed to see that the right thing is good, after that his love cost him dearly. Why go to the bad guys' and give u an explanation? Come here, see here we see many innocent devotees who are Iskonites, Vaishnavas and Shaiva (a few not here, but seen in newspaper), fighting in the name of god. Though most of them fight out of ego, a few of them quarrel out of the love for hari or hara, feeling that their lord is insulted (and why do they feel so, because they are guided that theirs is the only true form of god). I can't go with bhakti, because, it can be used to misguide people and I have seen many instances ( nityananda incident).

I conclude, bhakti without ability to analyse and knowledge or 'arivu' as akkamahadevi calls it is useless and waste. I may be wrong or correct, only time shall tell me.

[anirvan]

[QUOTE]

1.)Love, bhakti, bliss, etc.

Love is culminating state after true knowledge is attained and this is something missing in buddhism teachings.its ultimate.after you came to know something after so much labour for what?love is natural after knowing someone so grate,so virtuous etc.

2.)righteousness, path to attain knowledge etc.

its the prelim stage of knowledge.its called self purification.its essential befor we proceed towards knowledge.

3.)Knowledge = To know the truth.

Knowledge is two types.one by reading,studying,listening etc.its called indirect knowledge.it can give us little strength to proceed towards direct knowledge.direct knowledge is experienced in practice.its the oroginal strength to keep us from all ignorance.

4.)Thought = Tool to obtain knowledge.

its our faculty through which we proceed towards knowledge.

5.)The truth, the thinker, pure consciousness.

its the direct knowledge which is obtained after all rigors. knowledge sees the truth.

I have 2 simple questions.......
1.) Which is the greatest in terms of power and superiority?
2.) Which is more important for the soul to obtain? (This is a tough one for me)

so you must have got your answer.its not important which is more important,but its important where to start.

the answer is self purification.then you are eligible towards knowledge.this ca by path of bhakti.jnana,yoga or tantra.

practice of bhakti and true bhakti-bliss are different.later comes after practice of bhakti reaches at it"s pinnacle.

[smaranam]

Sir, I can't seem to agree with 'bhakti' to be the constant. I don't know what hinduism has to say, but buddhism says, a person aquires nirbana only when he eliminates full ignorance (or by attaining complete knowledge, both are same) and not just by 'bhakti.' I'd also like to tell you that I'm talking in general terms, 'love'. Still, I'll give you the example of Ravana. Ramayana shows us that he was a great devotee of god and what not, but he had performed many misdeeds of ravaging many kingdoms and running behind the lust of women. Did devotion come to his rescue? No, how can it for all his sins? It was justice which killed Ravana. Even though he had knowledge and love, it was all in vain, because he was nor righteous and chose the path of injustice.
...
We all know what the jihadi leaders do.... They misintepret and misguide the innocent youth, even though the youth may have devotion to 'allah' or 'god',
....
We all know how much the blind father loved his sons, the Kauravas, ...ultimately had to pay the ultimate price. Had the king listened to his brother Vidhura and Krishna, ....
Come here, see here we see many innocent devotees who are Iskonites, Vaishnavas and Shaiva (a few not here, but seen in newspaper), fighting in the name of god. ...

I conclude, bhakti without ability to analyse and knowledge or 'arivu' as akkamahadevi calls it is useless and waste. I may be wrong or correct, only time shall tell me.

Namaste upsydowny

1. What you are calling bhakti is not bhakti at all
Bhakti means PURE , SHUDDHA BHAKTI , without a motive, purpose, not as a means to attain something.

Ravana , a bhakta ? DhritarAshtra's selfish love for the sons was bhakti ? Did you hear what you just said ? RavaNa "worshipped" Shiva to gain powers from Him. He knew Shiva is Bholenath and is easily pleased by tapascharya. Ravan had some questionably noble goals - like justice for a group of people etc. Yet, he was missing equanimity (it is a different story that that was the purpose of his birth). Very convenient is it not ?

Only when Ravan's ahaMkAr crossed a certain boundary did Lord Shiva put His foot down, and VishNu waited till that happened.

Shiv purAN says at one point Bholenath was pleased by any villain who offered Him champak flowers. Then Bhagvan VishNu has to do something - send Narad Muni - Narayan Narayan

He who juggles the truth, yet keeping the promise for the devotees,
Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi ~

God is compassionate, so He comes in forms which are suitable for certain kinds - that does not mean if one is not of that nature, they cannot be a devotee of that form. Also, devotees of VishNu are automatically devotees of Shiva following His path.

Now, a very interesting statement : "It was justice which killed RAvaN"

And guess who that Chief Justice was - Shri RAmchandra krupALu bhajamana .... jayati jaya SitAvaram - i.e. Shri VishNu - who will never leave such loopholes, any stone unturned,

in fact, Shri VishNu will not grant boons right away - He will instead transform the devotee - as Hari - He will take away desires one by one by one. That is why hot-headed ambitious being cannot be true devotees of KrushNa.

To be a devotee of KrushNa one has to give up the false ego, false self FIRST. Who helps you do that ? Shri KrushNa Himself, and His dearest Radhe.
Radharani ke darbAr me koi kami nahi hai.

HE is calling us via the transcendental notes of His flute The jnAna comes automatically as you read, understand and sincerely follow His Words in the Gita. Selflessness, vairAgya, all comes automatically as the mundane desires and false ego are taken away - also by serving the Guru(s).

As for VaishNav, Shaiva and ISKCON devotees - if they are telling a newcomer, that is because they are compassionate and do not want anyone to go on and on with their guNa-karma. They want to intervene and help any potential Ravans. Had Ravan been helped earlier (which was of course not in the plan), the outcome would have been different.

Shri KrushNa Govind Hare MurAre
He nAth nErAyaN vAsudeva ~

[smaranam]

1. One has to understand what bhakti is
2. One has to understand the role played by Lord Shiva and the role played by Lord VishNu , KrushNa.
3. One has to understand that True bhakti can be towards either... but outcomes may vary

He nAth nArAyaN vAsudeva ~

[TheOne]

Greater and lesser are arguments of the ego, once one drops these labels, the veil is revealed.

[Adhvagat]

Sir, I can't seem to agree with 'bhakti' to be the constant. I don't know what hinduism has to say, but buddhism says, a person aquires nirbana only when he eliminates full ignorance (or by attaining complete knowledge, both are same) and not just by 'bhakti.' I'd also like to tell you that I'm talking in general terms, 'love'. Still, I'll give you the example of Ravana. Ramayana shows us that he was a great devotee of god and what not, but he had performed many misdeeds of ravaging many kingdoms and running behind the lust of women. Did devotion come to his rescue? No, how can it for all his sins? It was justice which killed Ravana. Even though he had knowledge and love, it was all in vain, because he was nor righteous and chose the path of injustice.

We all know what the jihadi leaders do.... They misintepret and misguide the innocent youth, even though the youth may have devotion to 'allah' or 'god', they sadly fail in life to understand whats correct and suffer by doing the wrong thing. Love is useless without knowledge, for I give u another example from Mahabharatha. We all know how much the blind father loved his sons, the Kauravas, and let them do whatever they liked, and what did they do? Injustice and ultimately had to pay the ultimate price. Had the king listened to his brother Vidhura and Krishna, he could have prevented the war, those pearls of wisdom were not desired by the king and did not obtain any knowledge and failed to see that the right thing is good, after that his love cost him dearly. Why go to the bad guys' and give u an explanation? Come here, see here we see many innocent devotees who are Iskonites, Vaishnavas and Shaiva (a few not here, but seen in newspaper), fighting in the name of god. Though most of them fight out of ego, a few of them quarrel out of the love for hari or hara, feeling that their lord is insulted (and why do they feel so, because they are guided that theirs is the only true form of god). I can't go with bhakti, because, it can be used to misguide people and I have seen many instances ( nityananda incident).

I conclude, bhakti without ability to analyse and knowledge or 'arivu' as akkamahadevi calls it is useless and waste. I may be wrong or correct, only time shall tell me.

It's not in vain that the first school of Vedic philosophy is Nyaya, followed by Vaisheshika and then Samkhya. Analytical abilities first!

When faith has no basis it needs to fight others, which represent our own internal doubts, in order to persist.

Bhakti would be largely based on Vedanta, and there are 5 other stepping stones before it. So why rush it? We have all the eternity for moksha, and each second with vedic conscience on this planet is better than the heavenly realms.