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Thread: Katha Upanishad

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    Katha Upanishad

    Namaste all.
    In Hindudharmaforums Sudarshan told me something about Katha Upanishad.
    By http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...p?t=428&page=2
    All I can tell you is, you are seeking something that fits your desires. In Katha Upanishad, the situation has been discussed, the issue is always between choosing the good and the pleasant. If you choose the good, you go up. If you choose the plesant you go down. The world, with all its charm in various ways is always waiting to pounce on you with plesantaries. The true spiritualist will discriminate and go up. DISCRIMINATION is the key.
    Anyone who teaches you otherwise is pulling you down - the choice is yours!
    BTW, you have ignored all my comments and taken the last word out of context. This is the central teaching of Katha Upanishad, of Lord Yama to Nachiketas. This has nothing to do with Srivaishnavism.Oh, you no longer beleive in Upanishads because they dont meet your expectations, eh?
    Well,it isn't that I no longer believed in Upanishads.The fact was that I never did ready Katha Upanishad expect some verses found somewhere.
    Some weeks ago I found such Upanishad at http://www.advaita.it/library/katha.htm
    I did read such Upanishad totally at least once.
    But I did read 1-I,1-II and 1-III about three or four times.

    I found Katha Upanishad very enlighting.
    I will copy here the three chapter of the first section.I will copy in bold the verses that I helped me to understand that Sudarshan was right when he told me that in order to obtain Moksha one has to leave all material desires and love and wish only God.
    By http://www.advaita.it/library/katha.htm

    Om ! May He protect us both together (by illumining the nature of knowledge). May He sustain us both (by ensuring the fruits of knowledge). May we attain the vigour (of knowledge) together. Let what we learn enlighten us. Let us not hate each other. Om ! Peace ! Peace ! Peace !

    1-I-1. Out of desire, so goes the story, the son of Vajasrava gave away all his wealth. He had a son named Nachiketas.
    1-I-2. Though young, faith possessed him as presents were being brought; he thought:
    1-I-3. Water has been drunk (for the last time by these cows), grass has been eaten (for the last time); they have yielded all their milk, and are devoid of (the power of) the organs. Those worlds are indeed joyless where he goes who offers these.
    1-I-4. He then said to his parent, "father, to whom wilt thou give me?" A second time and a third time (he said it). To him he (the father) said, "To Death I give thee."
    1-I-5. Of many I go the first; of many I go the middle most. What purpose of Yama could there be which (my father) will get accomplished today through me?
    1-I-6. Think how your ancestors behaved; behold how others now behave. Like corn man decays, and like corn he is born again.
    1-I-7. Like Vaisvanara (fire), a Brahmana guest enters the houses. Men offer this to propitiate him. O Vaivasvata (Yama): fetch water (for him).
    1-I-8. Hope, expectation, association with the effects (of these two), pleasant discourse, sacrifice, acts of pious liberality, sons and cattle – all these are destroyed in the case of the man of little intellect in whose house a Brahmana dwells without food.
    1-I-9. O Brahmana, since thou, a worshipful guest, hast dwelt in my house for three nights without food, let me make salutation to thee. O Brahmana, may peace be with me. Therefore, ask for three boons in return.
    1-I-10. O Death, let Gautama (my father) be relieved of the anxiety, let him become calm in mind and free from anger (towards me), and let him recognise me and talk to me when liberated by thee. Of the three boons, this is the first I choose.
    1-I-11. Ouddalaki, the son of Aruna, will recognise thee as before and will, with my permission, sleep peacefully during nights and on seeing thee released from the jaws of Death, he will be free from anger.
    1-I-12. There is no fear in heaven; nor art thou there; nor is there any fear from old age. Transcending both hunger and thirst and rising above grief, man rejoices in heaven.
    1-I-13. O Death, thou knowest the Fire that leads to heaven. Instruct me, who am endowed with faith, about that (Fire) by which those who dwell in heaven attain immortality. This I choose for my second boon.
    1-I-14. I will teach thee well; listen to me and understand, O Nachiketas, I know the Fire that leads to heaven. Know that Fire which is the means for the attainment of heaven and which is the support (of the universe) and located in the cavity.
    1-I-15. Death told him of the Fire, the source of the worlds, the sort of bricks (for raising the sacrificial altar), how many, and how (to kindle the fire) and he (Nachiketas) too repeated it as it was told. Then Death, becoming delighted over it, said again:
    1-I-16. The exalted one, being pleased, said to him: "I grant thee again another boon now. By thy name itself shall this fire be known; and accept thou this necklace of manifold forms".
    1-I-17. Whoso kindles the Nachiketas fire thrice and becomes united with the three and does the three-fold karma, transcends birth and death. Knowing the omniscient one, born of Brahma, bright and adorable, and realizing it, he attains to surpassing peace.
    1-I-18. He who, knowing the three (form of brick etc.,), piles up the Nachiketa Fire with this knowledge, throws off the chains of death even before (the body falls off), and rising over grief, rejoices in heaven.
    1-I-19. This is the Fire, O Nachiketas, which leads to heaven and which thou hast chosen for the second boon. Of this Fire, people will speak as thine indeed. O Nachiketas, choose the third boon.
    1-I-20. This doubt as to what happens to a man after death – some say he is, and some others say he is not, – I shall know being taught by thee. Of the boons, this is the third boon.
    1-I-21. Even by the gods this doubt was entertained in days of yore. This topic, being subtle, is not easy to comprehend. Ask for some other boon, O Nachiketas. Don’t press me; give up this (boon) for me.
    1-I-22. (Nachiketas said Since even by the gods was doubt entertained in this regard and (since) thou sayest, O Death, that this is not easily comprehended, no other preceptor like thee can be had to instruct on this nor is there any other boon equal to this.
    1-I-23. Ask for sons and grandsons who will live a hundred years. Ask for herds of cattle, elephants gold and horses, as also for a vast extent of earth and thyself live for as many autumns as thou desirest.
    1-I-24. If thou thinkest any other boon to be equal to this, ask for wealth and longevity. Be thou the ruler over a vast country, O Nachiketas; I shall make thee enjoy all thy longings.
    1-I-25. What all things there are in the human world which are desirable, but hard to win, pray for all those desirable things according to thy pleasure. Here are these damsels with the chariots and lutes, the like of whom can never be had by men. By them, given by me, get thy services rendered, O Nachiketas, do not ask about death.
    1-I-26. These, O Death, are ephemeral and they tend to wear out the vigour of all the senses of man. Even the whole life is short indeed. Be thine alone the chariots; be thine the dance and music.
    1-I-27. Man cannot be satisfied with wealth. If we need wealth, we shall get it if we only see thee. We shall live until such time as thou wilt rule. But the boon to be asked for (by me) is that alone.
    1-I-28. Having gained contact with the undecaying and the immortal, what decaying mortal dwelling on the earth below who knows the higher goal, will delight in long life, after becoming aware of the (transitoriness of) beauty (Varian) and sport (rati) and the joy (pramoda) thereof.
    1-I-29. O Death, tell us of that, of the great Beyond, about which man entertain doubt. Nachiketas does not pray for any other boon than this which enters into the secret that is hidden.


    1-II-1. Different is (that which is) preferable; and different, indeed, is the pleasurable. These two, serving different purposes, blind man. Good accrues to him who, of these two, chooses the preferable. He who chooses the pleasurable falls from the goal.
    1-II-2. The preferable and the pleasurable approach man. The intelligent one examines both and separates them. Yea, the intelligent one prefers the preferable to the pleasurable, (whereas) the ignorant one selects the pleasurable for the sake of yoga (attainment of that which is not already possessed) and kshema (the preservation of that which is already in possession).
    1-II-3. Thou hast relinquished, O Nachiketas, all objects of desire, dear and of covetable nature, pondering over their worthlessness. Thou hast not accepted the path of wealth in which perish many a mortal.
    1-II-4. What is known as ignorance and what is known as knowledge are highly opposed (to each other), and lead to different ways. I consider Nachiketas to be aspiring after knowledge, for desires, numerous though they be, did not tear thee away.
    1-II-5. Living in the midst of ignorance and deeming themselves intelligent and enlightened, the ignorant go round and round staggering in crooked paths, like the blind led by the blind.
    1-II-6. The means of attaining the other world does not become revealed to the non-discriminating one who, deluded by wealth, has become negligent. He who thinks, ‘this world alone is and none else’ comes to my thraldom again and again.

    1-II-7. Of the Self many are not even able to hear; Him many, though they hear, do not comprehend. Wonderful is the expounder of the Self and attainer, proficient. The knower (of the Self) taught by an able preceptor is wonderful.
    1-II-8. This (Self), if taught by an inferior person, is not easily comprehended, for It is variously thought of. Unless taught by another (who is a perceiver of non-difference) there is no way (of comprehending It), for It is not arguable and is subtler than subtlety.
    1-II-9. This (knowledge of the Self) attained by thee cannot be had through argumentation. O dearest, this doctrine, only if taught by some teacher (other than a logician), leads to right knowledge. O, thou art rooted in truth. May a questioner be ever like thee, O Nachiketas.
    1-II-10. I know that the treasure is impermanent, for that which is constant cannot be reached by things which are not constant. Therefore, has the Nachiketa Fire been kindled by me with impermanent things, and I have attained the eternal.
    1-II-11. The fulfilment of all desires, the support of the universe, the endless fruits of sacrifice, the other shore of fearlessness, the extensive path which is praiseworthy and great, as also (thy own exalted) state – seeing all these thou hast, intelligent as thou art, boldly rejected (them).
    1-II-12. The intelligent one, knowing through concentration of mind the Self that is hard to perceive, lodged in the innermost recess, located in intelligence, seated amidst misery, and ancient, abandons joy and grief.
    1-II-13. Having heard this and grasped it well, the mortal, separating the virtuous being (from the body etc.,) and attaining this subtle Self, rejoices having obtained that which causes joy. The abode (of Brahman), I think, is wide open unto Nachiketas.
    1-II-14. Tell me of that which thou seest as distinct from virtue, distinct from vice, distinct from effect and cause, distinct from the past and the future.
    1-II-15. The goal which all the Vedas expound, which all austerities declare, and desiring which aspirants resort to Brahmacharya, that goal, I tell thee briefly: It is this – Om.
    1-II-16. This syllable (Om) indeed is the (lower) Brahman; this syllable indeed is the higher Brahman; whosoever knows this syllable, indeed, attains whatsoever he desires.
    1-II-17. This support is the best; this support is the supreme. Knowing this support one is magnified in the world of Brahman.
    1-II-18. The intelligent Self is not born, nor does It die. It did not come from anywhere, nor did anything come from It. It is unborn, eternal, everlasting and ancient, and is not slain even when the body is slain.
    1-II-19. If the slayer thinks that he slays It and if the slain thinks of It as slain, both these do not know, for It does not slay nor is It slain.
    1-II-20. The Self that is subtler than the subtle and greater than the great is seated in the heart of every creature. One who is free from desire sees the glory of the Self through the tranquillity of the mind and senses and becomes absolved from grief.
    1-II-21. While sitting, It goes far, while lying It goes everywhere. Who other than me can know that Deity who is joyful and joyless.
    1-II-22. The intelligent one having known the Self to be bodiless in (all) bodies, to be firmly seated in things that are perishable, and to be great and all-pervading, does not grieve.
    1-II-23. The Self cannot be attained by the study of the Vedas, not by intelligence nor by much hearing. Only by him who seeks to know the Self can It be attained. To him the Self reveals Its own nature.
    1-II-24. None who has not refrained from bad conduct, whose senses are not under restraint, whose mind is not collected or who does not preserve a tranquil mind, can attain this Self through knowledge.
    1-II-25. The Self to which both the Brahmana and the Kshatriya are food, (as it were), and Death a soup, how can one know thus where It is.


    1-III-1. The knowers of Brahman and those who kindle the five fires and propitiate the Nachiketa Fire thrice, speak of as light and shade, the two that enjoy the results of righteous deeds, entering within the body, into the innermost cavity (of the heart), the supreme abode (of Brahman).
    1-III-2. May we be able to know the Nachiketa Fire which is the bridge for the sacrificers, as also the imperishable Brahman, fearless, as well as the other shore for those who are desirous of crossing (the ocean of samsara).
    1-III-3. Know the Self to be the master of the chariot, and the body to be the chariot. Know the intellect to be the charioteer, and the mind to be the reins.
    1-III-4. The senses they speak of as the horses; the objects within their view, the way. When the Self is yoked with the mind and the senses, the wise call It the enjoyer.
    1-III-5. But whoso is devoid of discrimination and is possessed of a mind ever uncollected – his senses are uncontrollable like the vicious horses of a driver.
    1-III-6. But whoso is discriminative and possessed of a mind ever collected – his senses are controllable like the good horses of a driver.
    1-III-7. But whoso is devoid of a discriminating intellect, possessed of an unrestrained mind and is ever impure, does not attain that goal, but goes to samsara.
    1-III-8. But whoso is possessed of a discriminating intellect and a restrained mind, and is ever pure, attains that goal from which he is not born again.
    1-III-9. But the man who has a discriminating intellect as his driver, and a controlled-mind as the reins, reaches the end of the path – that supreme state of Vishnu.
    1-III-10. The sensory objects are subtler than the senses, and subtler than the sensory objects is mind. But intellect is subtler than mind and subtler than intellect is Mahat (the Hiranyagarbha).
    1-III-11. The unmanifested (avyakta) is subtler than Mahat (Hiranyagarbha) and subtler than the unmanifested is Purusha. There is nothing subtler than Purusha. That is the end, that is the supreme goal.
    1-III-12. This Self hidden in all beings does not shine. But by seers of subtle and pointed intellect capable of perceiving subtle objects, It is seen.
    1-III-13. Let the wise man merge speech in his mind, merge that (mind) into the intelligent self and the intelligent self into the Mahat. (Let him then) merge the Mahat into the peaceful Self.
    1-III-14. Arise, awake, and learn by approaching the exalted ones, for that path is sharp as a razor’s edge, impassable, and hard to go by, say the wise.
    1-III-15. By knowing that which is soundless, touchless, formless, undecaying, so also tasteless, eternal, odourless, beginningless, endless, subtler than Mahat and constant, man is liberated from the jaws of death.

    1-III-16. Narrating and hearing this eternal story of Nachiketas told by Death, the intelligent man attains glory in the world of Brahman.
    1-III-17. Whoso, becoming pure, causes this supreme secret to be recited before am assembly of the Brahmanas, or at the time of Sraddha, that (ceremony) secures for him infinite results, secures infinite results.
    It is interesting even to note the following verses:
    2-III-14. When all longings that are in the heart vanish, then a mortal becomes immortal and attains Brahman here.
    2-III-15. When all the knots of the heart are cut asunder here, then a mortal becomes immortal. Only this much is the instruction.
    Such verses remember me the verse IV-iv-7 of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.In such Upanishad also there are other verses who say clearly that one must leave all material desires in order to achieve Moksha.
    By http://www.advaita.it/library/brihadaranyaka.htm

    IV-iv-1: When this self becomes weak and senseless, as it were, the organs come to it. Completely withdrawing these particles of light, it comes to the heart. When the presiding deity of the eye turns back from all sides, the man fails to notice colour.
    IV-iv-2: (The eye) becomes united (with the subtle body); then people say, ‘He does not see’. (The nose) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not smell’. (The tongue) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not taste’. (The vocal Organ) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not speak’. (The ear) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not hear’. (The Manas) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not think’. (The skin) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not touch’. (The intellect) becomes united; then they say, ‘He does not know’. The top of the heart brightens. Through that brightened top the self departs, either through the eye, or through the head, or through any other part of the body. When it departs, the vital force follows; when the vital force departs, all the organs follow. Then the self has particular consciousness, and goes to the body which is related to that consciousness. It is followed by knowledge, work and past experience.
    IV-iv-3: Just as a leech supported on a straw goes to the end of it, takes hold of another support and contracts itself, so does the self throw this body aside – make it senseless – take hold of another support, and contract itself.
    IV-iv-4: Just as a goldsmith takes apart a little quantity of gold and fashions another – a newer and better – form, so does the self throw this body away, or make it senseless, and make another – a newer and better – form suited to the manes or the celestial minstrels, or the gods, or Viraj, or Hiranyagarbha, or other beings.
    IV-iv-5: That self is indeed Brahman, as also identified with the intellect, the Manas and the vital force, with the eyes and ears, with earth, water, air and the ether, with fire, and what is other than fire, with desire and the absence of desire, with anger and the absence of anger, with righteousness and unrighteousness, with everything -–identified, in fact, with this (what is perceived) and with that (what is inferred). As it does and acts, so it becomes; by doing good it becomes good, and by doing evil it becomes evil – it becomes virtuous through good acts and vicious through evil acts. Others, however, say, ‘The self is identified with desire alone. What it desires, it resolves; what it resolves, it works out; and what it works out, it attains.’
    IV-iv-6: Regarding this there is the following pithy verse: ‘Being attached he, together with the work, attains that result to which his subtle body or mind is attached. Exhausting the results of whatever work he did in this life, he returns from that world to this for (fresh) work’. Thus does the man who desires (transmigrate). But the man who does not desire (never transmigrates). Of him who is without desires, who is free from desires, the objects of whose desire have been attained, and to whom all objects of desire are but the Self – the organs do not depart. Being but Brahman, he is merged in Brahman.
    IV-iv-7: Regarding this there is this pithy verse: ‘When all the desires that dwell in his heart (mind) are gone, then he, having been mortal, becomes immortal, and attains Brahman in this very body’. Just as the lifeless Slough of a snake is cast off and lies in the ant-hill, so does this body lie. Then the self becomes disembodied and immortal, (becomes) the Prana (Supreme Self), Brahman, the Light. ‘I give you a thousand (cows), sir’, said Janaka, Emperor of Videha.
    Thanks and regards,
    Orlando.

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    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Namaste Orlando,

    Now that you’re a Sri-Vaishnava again, I hope that you picked up the allegory in the Katha Upanishad alluding to a familiar scene from another famous text as you read the following verses:

    1-III-3. Know the Self to be the master of the chariot, and the body to be the chariot. Know the intellect to be the charioteer, and the mind to be the reins.
    1-III-4. The senses they speak of as the horses; the objects within their view, the way. When the Self is yoked with the mind and the senses, the wise call It the enjoyer.
    1-III-5. But whoso is devoid of discrimination and is possessed of a mind ever uncollected – his senses are uncontrollable like the vicious horses of a driver.
    1-III-6. But whoso is discriminative and possessed of a mind ever collected – his senses are controllable like the good horses of a driver.
    1-III-7. But whoso is devoid of a discriminating intellect, possessed of an unrestrained mind and is ever impure, does not attain that goal, but goes to samsara.
    1-III-8. But whoso is possessed of a discriminating intellect and a restrained mind, and is ever pure, attains that goal from which he is not born again.
    1-III-9. But the man who has a discriminating intellect as his driver, and a controlled-mind as the reins, reaches the end of the path – that supreme state of Vishnu.


    And, in case you didn’t, this image might help you:




    OM Shanti,
    A.



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    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Namaste Orlando,

    Now that you’re a Sri-Vaishnava again, I hope that you picked up the allegory in the Katha Upanishad alluding to a familiar scene from another famous text as you read the following verses:

    1-III-3. Know the Self to be the master of the chariot, and the body to be the chariot. Know the intellect to be the charioteer, and the mind to be the reins.
    1-III-4. The senses they speak of as the horses; the objects within their view, the way. When the Self is yoked with the mind and the senses, the wise call It the enjoyer.
    1-III-5. But whoso is devoid of discrimination and is possessed of a mind ever uncollected – his senses are uncontrollable like the vicious horses of a driver.
    1-III-6. But whoso is discriminative and possessed of a mind ever collected – his senses are controllable like the good horses of a driver.
    1-III-7. But whoso is devoid of a discriminating intellect, possessed of an unrestrained mind and is ever impure, does not attain that goal, but goes to samsara.
    1-III-8. But whoso is possessed of a discriminating intellect and a restrained mind, and is ever pure, attains that goal from which he is not born again.
    1-III-9. But the man who has a discriminating intellect as his driver, and a controlled-mind as the reins, reaches the end of the path – that supreme state of Vishnu.


    And, in case you didn’t, this image might help you:




    OM Shanti,
    A.
    Namaste Verdana.
    Yes,I understood what is the scene and the famous text you are talking about.
    The scene is the following:Lord Krishna is talking to Arjuna.
    The famous text is Bhagavad-Gita.

    Regards,
    Orlando.

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    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhakta of God View Post
    Namaste Verdana.
    Yes,I understood what is the scene and the famous text you are talking about.
    The scene is the following:Lord Krishna is talking to Arjuna.
    The famous text is Bhagavad-Gita.
    Namaste Orlando,

    Molto bene Orlando... ma che è Verdana? Sono Agnideva! .
    (that’s all the Italian I know ).

    OM Shanti,
    A.



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    Question Re: Katha Upanishad

    As the same non-dual fire, after it has entered the world, becomes different according to whatever it burns, so also the same non-dual Atman, dwelling in all beings, becomes different according to whatever It enters. And It exists also without.

    Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part Two, Chapter II, 9

    As the same non-dual air, after it has entered the world, becomes different according to whatever it enters, so also the same non-dual Atman, dwelling in all beings, becomes different according to whatever It enters. And It exists also without.

    Yajur Veda, Katha Upanishad, Part Two, Chapter II, 10
    Atman becomes different according to whatever it enters. A beautiful concept for sure.

    “And It exists also without.” seems to say that Atman also exists without entering a physical body, which is to say that Atman is the imperishable supreme Brahman. How can this be? Isn’t God much much more than the imperfect soul residing within the physical body? Or perhaps It becomes imperfect at the moment It begins to reside in the physical body? Or perhaps Atman is not imperfect is my misunderstanding?

    If I may ask, would someone be willing to give your understanding of these verses?
    There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.


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    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by mirabai View Post
    Atman becomes different according to whatever it enters. A beautiful concept for sure.

    “And It exists also without.” seems to say that Atman also exists without entering a physical body, which is to say that Atman is the imperishable supreme Brahman. How can this be? Isn’t God much much more than the imperfect soul residing within the physical body? Or perhaps It becomes imperfect at the moment It begins to reside in the physical body? Or perhaps Atman is not imperfect is my misunderstanding?

    If I may ask, would someone be willing to give your understanding of these verses?
    Namaste mirabai,
    I am impressed you are asking these questions. Let me see if I can get to the crux of your question. When we think of Brahman in us, It is the SELF. It resides in us, and there is nothing imperfect about it. This SELF is beyond the physical. This SELF Is Pure Awareness, Pure Intelligence. It takes the shape of the being or object it is in, yet is unaffected by it.

    Same as the sap of the tree. The sap is the SELF of the tree. It takes the shape of a branch, of the bark, the flower, the bud, the roots. All look and feel different, yet is still the expression of the sap. It has kept it's nature, but expresses itself through the tree differently. Like that. This Pure Awareness/Consciousness, SELF is like the sap. The verse says it is also within and without. THat is 'He enters and is outside all forms'. That is , All this is Brahman, outside and inside. No duality, yet multiple expressions of THAT in ourselves, nature, the cosmos.

    If we look to 1.2.22 of the Kathopanishad, it says 'The wise man who knows the Atman as bodiless, seated firmly in parishable bodies, great and all pervading, does never grieve. '
    The wisdom here is 'perishable bodies' - one may infer that this then is imperfect , yet IT ( Brahman) is acting within the laws of the 3 guna's and this Brahman acts with creation, maintenence and destruction ( Brahman, Visnu, Rudra) principles. Yet Brahman never loses it Mahantam, greatness and vibhu, all pervading status. Such is the wonder of this Brahman as akshara, imperishable.

    pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Namaste Mirabai,
    Quote Originally Posted by mirabai View Post
    Isn’t God much much more than the imperfect soul residing within the physical body? Or perhaps It becomes imperfect at the moment It begins to reside in the physical body? Or perhaps Atman is not imperfect is my misunderstanding?
    Yajvan has answered your question very well. There is no imperfection in Brahman or Atman. That Brahman and This Atman are perfect. The term translated as perfection in the below verse is Purnam, which describes that fullness, completeness, wholeness or perfection (Plenum in Latin).

    That is Perfection, This is Perfection.
    This Perfection has been projected from That Perfection.
    When Perfection is derived from Perfection, what remains is also Perfection.
    AUM! Peace, peace, peace!

    ~ Peace invocation that begins and ends the Upanishads of the Shukla Yajurveda

    That Brahman is like open, unrestricted space. This Atman is thought of as enclosed space. Depending on how the walls, floors and ceilings are built we may call it different things – house, mansion, bungalow, apartment, skyscraper, hut, etc. Whereas space can be measured in dimensions, Atman (Brahman) is dimensionless. This is found in the Katha Upanishad itself:

    The Atman – smaller than the smallest and greater than the greatest – is seated in the heart of every creature. One who is free from desire sees the glory of the Atman through the tranquility of the mind and senses and becomes absolved from grief.

    ~Katha Upanishad (I.2.20) of the Krishna Yajurveda

    If you are studying the Katha Upanishad, I highly recommend Swami Krishnananda's Commentary on the Katha Upanishad.

    OM Shanti,
    A.



  8. #8

    Re: Katha Upanishad

    This is the reason why status of Maya and Jagat have been left open in vedantic philosophies including advaita. Some Tantric philosophies propose that Jagat and all it's imperfections are but emancipations of the perfect Brahman. It seems to pose a contradiction to the human awareness. So perhaves viewing the Jagat as an illusion is a better approach for a monist.

    Agamic viewpoint may be true, but our language cannot reconcile the perfect Brahman and the imperfect Jagat at the moment.

    Anyway for me, the assurance of a perfect awareness seated in this imperfect body, and that which is attainable seems more than enough. Philosophical inquiry on how this is imperfect while that is perfect is not necessary when moksha is the only goal. Nonetheless, such can be an interesting intellectual exercise.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  9. #9
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    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    Anyway for me, the assurance of a perfect awareness seated in this imperfect body, and that which is attainable seems more than enough. Philosophical inquiry on how this is imperfect while that is perfect is not necessary when moksha is the only goal. Nonetheless, such can be an interesting intellectual exercise.

    Namaste sm78,
    A vaild point made... I would ask that we consider the body as 'imperfect' in this case as that of it being transitory. Imperfect or the blemish of the body is that it comes and goes. Yet if one considers the efficient cause of this body, Brahman, and IT is perfect, then it's effect ( the body, creation, etc) is of this nature also.

    So lets poke around on this and see what comes of it
    I would argue against this by saying, look at the defects in one's own body of dis-ease, imbalances ( doshas), etc.

    Another view by example
    If the 'clay' is perfect, should not the pot made from the clay be perfect also? If the ocean is perfect, should not the wave be perfect too?

    Those of enlightened intellect suggest this is the case, as they see the homogeneous use and application of pure consciousness in every strand of life. Hence creation is perfect due to it's raw materials , pure consciousness being of this nature. For me and my state of consciousness, my eyes still see the imperfections.

    Another Idea
    If we look at Agnideva's post and the invocation we find throughout the Upanishads, 'That is Perfection, This is Perfection' - this is the position of satkarya-vada - or the effect ( this creation, ourselves) resides in the cause ( Brahman, Purusha, etc). This is the vision of the muni's and they proclaim that Brahman is fullness, perfection, then its effects ( i.e. how it manifests) are perfect too, in this statement.

    A very interesting set of affairs don't you think? This is a cornerstone of Samkaya Philosophy ( this satkarya-vada ) the discussion of causation.
    Does the effect exist in the cause...


    Now who thinks differently about this? the Nyaya-Vaisesika's. They think asat-karya-vada - that is, the effect is non-existent in the cause.
    Their reasoning? There is no reason to consider a cause if the effect is a done deal, already there. Why talk of the clay when the pot is already a done deal? What is the need of the potter and his wheel if the pot is done, no cause is needed.

    Now if that does not get your head spinning just a bit! For me the answer is all in 'potential and possibilities'. The pot is there in potential form, it is possible, but has not manifest. We live in a universe of cause and effect , and an action needs to take place for the potential to manifest e.g. the pot from the clay.

    Just as a huge monolith of granite stone sits for century's, then the artist 'sees' a statue in the stone, he carves and chips away everything that is not the statue.

    So goes the conversation of perfect v. imperfect.

    pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  10. #10

    Re: Katha Upanishad

    Thank you to Yajvan and Agnideva for insights and explanations in addressing my question..
    Contemplating on the sap of the tree as Atman and the Tree itself as physicalbody, or even Tree as the whole material existence, I can more clearly see the relationship and the potential of imperfect humanity (and imperfect material body) which has perfect Atman flowing in and through, and as the “real” life of it in a sense as it accommodates the differences while remaining unchanged. Not entirely clearly seeing, but getting there. And as SM78 observed, “the assurance of a perfect awareness seated in this imperfect body, and that which is attainable seems more than enough.” How I long to have that assurance or that ‘knowing’.
    Sometimes I think what prisoners we are, chained to these attachments and don’t even know we have created the chains ourselves and can break free of them by our own efforts through submitting to the discipline and obtaining the knowledge. What geniuses the ancients were, to have perfected this. Yet not geniuses, but prisoners like us, who comprehended and persevered.
    All the posts in this thread are good and enlightening and I have been stealing away to read it, a few minutes here and there.
    And now began reading Swami Krishnananda’s book the Commentary on Katha Upanishad. which I have downloaded from the site.

    Om âpo jyotih rasomritam brahma
    bhûr bhuvas suvar om


    Om, the Water, the Light, the very Essence in which we exist, the Absolute, the physical world, the astral realm, the mental realm,

    all are Om.
    There remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion.


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