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Thread: What does Krishna mean by ME?

  1. #1

    What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Krishna: Some people meditate on Me as an endless spirit. That kind of meditation is troublesome, but eventually they may achieve Me. But if you directly think of Me, I swiftly rescue you from the sea of birth and death.

    If you can’t always think of Me, then hear and chant about me in the practice of bhakti, or devotional yoga. If you can’t do that, then work for Me, or at least work for charity, because detachment brings peace—more so than mere knowledge.

    ---------------------

    I can't seem to figure it out. Is he advising to constantly think about him in his bodily form? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by sky95 View Post
    I can't seem to figure it out. Is he advising to constantly think about him in his bodily form? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
    Your question is a most reasonable one...
    Note when kṛṣṇa-jī gives us this instruction within the bhāgavad gītā. This śloka comes in the 18th chapter. Kṛṣṇa-jī has been ~teaching~ all along to prepare for the final part of His offer/instruction to us. He is informing us to be totally enaged with Him. That means posessed of, settled-in the Self (ātman).

    It is from here we can come to know the fullness of His Being. Before this, we are guessing, we are ~pretending~ to know the Divine.

    Well how does one do this? We come to know chapters 1 to 6. In these chapters kṛṣṇa-jī sets the foundation.

    How can we come to know the Divine when we do not know our own divine being?

    praām
    Last edited by yajvan; 11 June 2011 at 03:30 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    This śloka comes in the 18th chapter. Kṛṣṇa-jī has been ~teaching~ all along to prepare for the final part of His offer/instruction to us. He is informing us to be total engaged with Him. That means possessed of, settled-in the Self (ātman).
    We come to realize that the bhāgavad gītā is most skillfully written. That one chapter compliments the other and there is a progression in spiritual unfoldment as one moves from chapter to chapter. It becomes an instruction on what needs to be accomplished first, then it progresses on. To go to the 18th chapter and try to exercise the instructions there ( successfully) is like building a home with no foundation. The walls and structure have no support.

    We first must build the infrastructure for the house to stand.


    praṇām
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  4. #4

    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Quote Originally Posted by sky95 View Post
    Krishna: Some people meditate on Me as an endless spirit. That kind of meditation is troublesome, but eventually they may achieve Me. But if you directly think of Me, I swiftly rescue you from the sea of birth and death.

    If you can’t always think of Me, then hear and chant about me in the practice of bhakti, or devotional yoga. If you can’t do that, then work for Me, or at least work for charity, because detachment brings peace—more so than mere knowledge.

    Namaste sky95

    KrushNa says the above in the 12th chapter - Bhakti Yog .

    BG 12.1: Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?

    BG 12.2: (from bhagavad-gita.org - 4 VaishNav acharyas)
    Lord KrushNa said: of those who are endowed with firm faith of a special kind beyond material conceptions; fixing their minds on Me, always engaged in exclusively worshipping Me, are considered by Me to be the most superior of all.

    BG 12.2: (from Swami PrabhupAd) The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.

    BG 12.3-4: But those who fully worship the unmanifested, that which lies beyond the perception of the senses, the all-pervading, inconceivable, unchanging, fixed and immovable — the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth — by controlling the various senses and being equally disposed to everyone, such persons, engaged in the welfare of all, at last achieve Me.

    BG 12.5: For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

    BG 12.6-7: But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Pṛthā — for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death.

    BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt.

    BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me.

    This means : If you are not on the spontaneous platform of communion with Me, follow sAdhanA bhakti, vaidhi bhakti - japa, archana, etc. with rules and regulations.

    BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage.

    BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated.

    BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind.



    So now, you can see for yourself. KrushNa distinguishes between the avyakta - unmanifest Brahman' and His Person. If He meant "Me = impersonal attributeless qualitiless something" then He would not suggest establishing a relationship in Bhakti. Then where is the question of two different alternatives ? And why would He refer to Himself as "the swift deliverer" ? That indicates a Person with form, but not a material body.

    Also, we must keep in mind that KrushNa's AtmA is non-different from KrushNa's form, is non-different from His Holy Names. Because KrushNa is ABSOLUTE and eternal - shAsvat.
    That does not apply to us - the jivatma and body - deha, are different. Deha, man - mind, ahaMkAr - false ego are temporary and different from the eternal jivatma.

    We must never think that by "My form" He means some material form like ours. It means His spiritual form. If that is difficult to understand, please read Gita from VaishNav AchAryas only :

    http://bhagavad-gita.org/

    Jai Shri KrushNa

    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Quote Originally Posted by smaranam View Post
    Namaste sky95

    We must never think that by "My form" He means some material form like ours. It means His spiritual form. If that is difficult to understand, please read Gita from VaishNav AchAryas only :

    http://bhagavad-gita.org/

    Jai Shri KrushNa

    praNAm
    Respected smaranma
    For me this is only one way to the divine Lord. For he is both manifest and unmanifest:

    "By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them."
    Chapter #: 9 Shloka #: 4 - Bhagavad Gita As It Is.


    There is no 'right' way, but ways which are right individually (for the jIva). I agree that approaching the divine as unmanifest is harder, but the reward is still the Divine

    Pranams.

  6. #6

    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Namaste ONkarji,

    In this context sky95 is trying to understand the 1st alternative given by Shri KrushNa among TWO alternatives:

    1. Me
    2. Impersonal Brahman

    Here, to understand this "Me" in BG12.2 - 12.n alone, read VaishNav translations.
    Why ? Because the two paths cannot be mixed up. We do acknowledge there are two paths. KrushNa says so very clearly.

    We cannot simply interpret it as :

    1. Me = impersonal Universal AtmA without My transcendental qualities, form(s) and name
    2. NirguN impersonal Brahman

    because that is not what KrushNa meant, and He would sound very silly to Arjun if He meant something like that especially since He is making a stark comparison between the two ways.

    So, it is not a question of right or wrong, it is about understanding option 1 in this context the way KrushNa meant it.
    St. DnyAneshwar calls it "My saguN rUpa" although his sampradAy goes for option 2.
    Srila PrabhupAd calls it "My Personal Form" and all schools are in agreement with this.

    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  7. #7

    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Why is a Sanskrit reference to Brahman translated as "impersonal Brahman"?

    How can a divine state of being where consciousness transcends subject/object experiential poles be described as either impersonal or personal? Is that useful?

    Otherwise, when Krishna and his devotees, past times and paraphernalia transcend subject/object experiential poles and, rather, understood as non different to Krishna, is it valid to qualify Krishna as "impersonal Krishna"?

  8. #8

    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Hare KrushNa

    Basically Shri KrushNa and Arjun are comparing and contrasting

    1. Bhakti of KrushNa the [Supreme] Person, AdiPurush, which implies His transcendental qualities and all about His Personality

    2. Focus on understanding the avyakta - unmanifest, beyond the perception of senses, nirAkAr - formless, nirguN - in this context without attributes. This avyakta, achintya, nirAkAr does not point to a person most definitely ? Hence impersonal.

    ------

    BG 12.3-4

    ye tv akṣaram anirdeśyam
    avyaktaḿ paryupāsate
    sarvatra-gam acintyaḿ ca
    kūṭa-stham acalaḿ dhruvam

    sanniyamyendriya-grāmaḿ
    sarvatra sama-buddhayaḥ
    te prāpnuvanti mām eva
    sarva-bhūta-hite ratāḥ


    ye — those who; tu — but; akṣaram — that which is beyond the perception of the senses; anirdeśyam — indefinite; avyaktam — unmanifested; paryupāsate — completely engage in worshiping; sarvatra-gam — all-pervading; acintyam — inconceivable; ca — also; kūṭa-stham — unchanging; acalam — immovable; dhruvam — fixed; sanniyamya — controlling; indriya-grāmam — all the senses; sarvatra — everywhere; sama-buddhayaḥ — equally disposed; te — they; prāpnuvanti — achieve; mām — Me; eva — certainly; sarva-bhūta-hite — for the welfare of all living entities; ratāḥ — engaged.


    BG 12.5

    kleśo 'dhikataras teṣām
    avyaktāsakta-cetasām
    avyaktā hi gatir duḥkhaḿ
    dehavadbhir avāpyate


    kleśaḥ — trouble; adhika-taraḥ — very much; teṣām — of them; avyakta — to the unmanifested; āsakta — attached; cetasām — of those whose minds; avyaktā — toward the unmanifested; hi — certainly; gatiḥ — progress; duḥkham — with trouble; deha-vadbhiḥ — by the embodied; avāpyate — is achieved.


    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Namasté
    Thanks for replying - I am learning.

    Are the words "personal" and "impersonal" actually used in Sanskrit?
    It seems to be closer to "manifest"(form) and "unmanifest"(without form).

    In 12.1, from what I can see the world is "aksaram" - imperishable, form the dictionary, not "impersonal", which causes philosophical questions to arise for me.

    So in the OP, "Me" is regarding the saguna - manifestations of Krishna - having continued from Chapter 11, in which Krishna displays His swaroop (divine forms). Contrasted to the unmanifest.

    I compared 4 translations. The most useful, in answer to the OP in my humble opinion was the Gitartha Smagraha by Abhinavagupta in which he explains that the question in 12.1 is for Arjuna to understand the differences between the two typs of devotion.

  10. #10

    Re: What does Krishna mean by ME?

    Namaste

    Akshar means imperishable, no doubt, but here, the avyakta (unmanifest) and akshara - imperishable, is referring to akshar brahman. And it is avyakta achintya nirAkAr hence incomprehensible to the mind and senses. Hence the implied meaning is used by other VaishNav acharyas too not just PrabhupAd. Also, do we not all agree that this second option in BG 12.1, 3 and 4 is impersonal ?

    This akshar-brahman is the Lord's all-pervading energy - potency.

    Bottom line:
    A: Devotion to Me as a Person
    B: Figuring out My unmanifest all-pervading formless eternal energy-potency

    I don't think anyone disagrees with this.

    The "ME" in option A referenced in the OP is the most beautiful ShyAm-varNa (dark raincloud complexioned) kamal-nayan (lotus eyed) G O V I N D
    Whose Lotus Feet bring all-auspicousness wherever they go and whoever / whatever they grace and touch.

    End of Story.

    Govindam Adi Purusham Tam aham bhajAmi
    Last edited by smaranam; 12 June 2011 at 08:38 PM.
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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