Exploring "I"

[kallol]

Sorry Devotee ji,

My intention is not to hurt or be obstinate but to understand & learn with conviction.

Just by believing does not take me anywhere. But getting into the analysis and thereby rediscovering bring in a conviction in the mind. Thereafter we do not need books to validate the points. We will be living those points.

I would appreciate if you explain to me where and why I am wrong logically.

Sorry for probing deeper.

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

Kallol, my dear friend,
I expect Yajvanji will expand on his well written post above (one I will enjoy re-reading), so I hope not to encroach, but would like to offer something to this thread from my personal perspective.

The ego-mind or 'i' has no independent existence. It is itself a thought in the stream of thoughts that pass in front of your Consciousness. This is why mediation, japa, puja can aid to sever the knot which binds us to the lower self. They create a gap from the thoughts and strengthen the Consciousness which observes.

The question about where "i" resides, will fuel itself with the attention we give it. The more we try to find a location, the more frustrated and important the question will be. This can be so for many questions because their source is the mind itself. It is like a dog chasing its own tail.

Abiding as the pure "I" - as divine Consciousness is the remedy. If the question "how to abide as divine Consciousness?" arises then it is the "i" (the mind) which is asking. In other words the answer (and question) is still in the realm of thoughts, in the mind. That is fine as that is where questions and answers belong, but one must recognise that realm and that one is that which recognises it. Now add meditation, sit and watch awareness itself, the question will become quite, perhaps forgotten, but the "I" (Consciousness) will remain, keep with that "I".

Here is where the difference lies. Consciousness is by itself unmanifest. Neither it is subject to time, nor change, nor attribute. These are the basic natures of consciousness which is the Higher nature of God and all manifested bodies.

Vibration cannot happen in consciousness as it will involve time, change, attribute.

These all happen in the Lower nature of God which is both manifest and unmanifest. Though it is True that the Lower nature is known only through the Higher nature, otherwise its existence is not known.

Krishna body is the lower nature where as "I" the Krishna is the Higher nature. But together is what we know as Krishna.

Now as Yajvanji mentioned the "i" identifies with the ahamkara - how does the "I" percolate down to "i" ? Where does "i" reside and is there any connections with the "i"s of the organs, cells of my body ?

Love and best wishes

[kallol]

Dear Onkara,

I agree to your post totally.

However my intention is to find out if there is a co-relation of "I" as kallol and "i"s as the organs and cells which make kallol.

Do those "i"s affect or confuse my mind when I am trying to seek that "I" ?

Another way of asking the same would be "How is the body affecting the search for "I" ?

I am trying to prick the brains. Hope Yajvanji would dive deeper to show me the way to think.

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

Dear Kallol
Thanks for clarifying, I hope I can better address your point.

My response would be yes, the mind and body are material and consequently linked. The parts affect the whole. As your example above, what medicine we consume can affect the mind. The body is food and hence the mind is influenced by food. Likewise our search for the Self and sadhana is affected by the body.

The body, or lower self, is not a burden, it too is divine and can serve us. As it appears in the Srimad Bhagavatam, the mind can be used like a thorn to remove another thorn and arrive at the highest Self. This is why a human birth is an auspicious birth and we are told to use it well, to find the divine.

Here is an article on food and the mind, should it help (I have not yet digested it whole so cannot vouch for the quality of its content - pun intended , ):

http://www.sivanandaonline.org/publi...section_id=860

Dear Onkara,

I agree to your post totally.

However my intention is to find out if there is a co-relation of "I" as kallol and "i"s as the organs and cells which make kallol.

Do those "i"s affect or confuse my mind when I am trying to seek that "I" ?

Another way of asking the same would be "How is the body affecting the search for "I" ?

I am trying to prick the brains. Hope Yajvanji would dive deeper to show me the way to think.

Love and best wishes

[devotee]

Sorry Devotee ji,

My intention is not to hurt or be obstinate but to understand & learn with conviction.

Just by believing does not take me anywhere. But getting into the analysis and thereby rediscovering bring in a conviction in the mind. Thereafter we do not need books to validate the points. We will be living those points.

I would appreciate if you explain to me where and why I am wrong logically.

Sorry for probing deeper.

Love and best wishes

There is no question of hurt feeling here. I can understand your problem as I myself am an Engineer by profession and like to see things in a logical manner.

... and it is not at all a matter of probing deeper or otherwise. It appears to you that you are probing deeper ... to me it is just a matter of sticking to conditioned way of perceiving things and imho, you have to work towards that. Therefore, it is only you who can help you & no one else.

OM

[kallol]

Dear Kallol
Thanks for clarifying, I hope I can better address your point.

My response would be yes, the mind and body are material and consequently linked. The parts affect the whole. As your example above, what medicine we consume can affect the mind. The body is food and hence the mind is influenced by food. Likewise our search for the Self and sadhana is affected by the body.

The body, or lower self, is not a burden, it too is divine and can serve us. As it appears in the Srimad Bhagavatam, the mind can be used like a thorn to remove another thorn and arrive at the highest Self. This is why a human birth is an auspicious birth and we are told to use it well, to find the divine.

Here is an article on food and the mind, should it help (I have not yet digested it whole so cannot vouch for the quality of its content - pun intended , ):

http://www.sivanandaonline.org/publi...section_id=860

Dear Onkara,

Your part is again very true. Even in the link, I find the essence is true. However there is one point where I am a bit confused now.

If mind is purely out of food we take, then what medium the past karmaphals use to carry over. How is life / consciousness getting into a body ? As I know mind is the medium (reflector) through which life / consciousness gets int bodies.

I can understand that food nurtures mind state but mind being out of food only - I am not able to grasp. It leads to other falacies.

Is there any deeper analysis on this ?

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

Dear Kallol,
The subtle body (Liṅga Śarīra) is the medium. The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam explains this well, for example:

I suggest: http://vedabase.net/sb/7/2/en

see Canto 7.2.47 for "subtle body": http://vedabase.net/sb/7/2/47/

Hope that removes more doubts

Dear Onkara,

Your part is again very true. Even in the link, I find the essence is true. However there is one point where I am a bit confused now.

If mind is purely out of food we take, then what medium the past karmaphals use to carry over. How is life / consciousness getting into a body ? As I know mind is the medium (reflector) through which life / consciousness gets int bodies.

I can understand that food nurtures mind state but mind being out of food only - I am not able to grasp. It leads to other falacies.

Is there any deeper analysis on this ?

Love and best wishes

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté kallol,

Dear Yajvanji,
Thanks for your beautiful analysis of the Aham and Ahamkara. It gives a new perspective to look at the words.

Thanks again.

This sets the stage to answer your questions more appropriately... We are not done yet and I can continue if you wish.

"let's see everything that Is as Infinite Ocean of Consciousness. This Ocean of Consciousness is both manifest and unmanifest in various forms and formlessness ... with attributes and also without attributes depending upon its vibratory modes. The vibration in this Ocean of Consciousness gives rise to this world that we see."

Here is where the difference lies. Consciousness is by itself unmanifest. Neither it is subject to time, nor change, nor attribute. These are the basic natures of consciousness which is the Higher nature of God and all manifested bodies.

Vibration cannot happen in consciousness as it will involve time, change, attribute.

Vibration in consciousness is how creation begins and is sustained. This is supported and reviewed in the spanda-kārikā-s, a kaśmir śaivism important śāstra (document).
This ~vibration~ is called Self-referral . This pure Being is aware of Itself - that is the 'throb' , the vibration if you will, that is reviewed in the spanda-kārikā-s. That is why it is different then śāṁkhya and in some cases vedānta schools of thinking.

You see, in kaśmir śaivism ( an advaya or non-dual view), pure Being, Brahman is not inert - we see this in the śāṁkhya view. The very 1st verse of the spanda-kārikā-s( based upon the sage's experience) suggests that this Self-referral quality ( spanda) is the basic nature of pure Being ( we call śiva, some prefer Brahman).

So if you are locked into one school of thought you will come to an end in your thinking that leaves you on a remote island without a ship to take you to the shores of understanding.
Note this is not an advertisement for you to pursue any one school over the other... Continue to explore, ponder.
The wise inform us, it is not what you do not know that is an issue, but what you do know that's just not correct, that gets one into a bind.

So, a bit more reading and study will be good, but also direct personal experience is the formula for greater understanding.

Various HDF members will be happy to help. May I suggest one issue/doubt at a time? It will lead to other answers for you.

If you are okay with that then my last post will be a foundation to answer your initial 3 to 4 questions , if we follow a progression of thought . If this is acceptable to you, I will be happy to proceed. If you care to go in another direction, let us know.

praṇām

[kallol]

Dear Kallol
Thanks for clarifying, I hope I can better address your point.

My response would be yes, the mind and body are material and consequently linked. The parts affect the whole. As your example above, what medicine we consume can affect the mind. The body is food and hence the mind is influenced by food. Likewise our search for the Self and sadhana is affected by the body.

The body, or lower self, is not a burden, it too is divine and can serve us. As it appears in the Srimad Bhagavatam, the mind can be used like a thorn to remove another thorn and arrive at the highest Self. This is why a human birth is an auspicious birth and we are told to use it well, to find the divine.

Here is an article on food and the mind, should it help (I have not yet digested it whole so cannot vouch for the quality of its content - pun intended , ):

http://www.sivanandaonline.org/publi...section_id=860

Dear Onkara,

I was thinking in your link and direction. Some light I see at the end of the tunnel. Though it is still hazy but it gives some kind of correlation - food and I.

The foods are different types - air, water, fruits, vegetables, etc. Again it varies at different levels. How we define food ?

At human level, the food is to sustain the body. At organ level, it is an external object to which they react. The reaction and the resultant outcome varies.

If I bring that phenomenon at human level it is similar to the external stimulii which are coming through the sense organs. The processing of those stimulii is done with help of mind and intellect and the outcome of it is done through mind and action organs. Based on this the state of mind changes. Which in turn affects or contributes towards the frequency / vibration at the higher levels. Again state of mind has huge effect on the body also.

The same is possibly happening at the lower levels. The resultant outcome changes / alters the state of the organ's mind - for better, worse. This outcome moves up to alter in the state of mind at human level. So the state of i s at lower level contribute towards the state of I at human level.

Basically they are pure and same as "I" but due the the external "food" over which both the lower levels and human have less control contributes towards the formation of the apparent i and I. Which arise due to the layers of karmaphals of the lower and human level covering the real "I".

This is just a thought process. Need to delve more.

Love and best wishes

[sarangi dasi]

A few questions :

1. Where does this "I" lie ?

2. What are the natures of "I" ?

3. There is a firewall between your "I" and my "I". This is true for all levels. Mine with my brain, my liver, my heart, etc and also at the next levels of the cells. All of them have "I" but I do not know or connect with that "I".

How are these "I"s interlinked ?

Love and best wishes

I is conscious identity. It is an expression consciousness aware of itself. There is no firewall other than infinite potency. Your I and my I, while functionally the same, are each subjectively different (in content of experience). By culture (communciation of commnalities), spiritual, ethnic etc, we may decrease the diffrences in content but never extinguish the differences. As universal consciousness is infinite, so its minute microcosms (your I and my I and his I and her I), also have infinite range and scope.