Bhakti in Vedanta

[SOV]

" Give me a leaf or a flower with bhakti, I shall accept it lovingly"- Bhagavan Shri Krishna in the Gita.

Although bhakti has a range of meanings, the most important, specially related to this concept is devotion. Well Krishna himself in the gita has stated four kinds of bhaktas: One who is looking out for wealth,one who is in distress, one who is inquisitive of the ultimate and the jnani.

It is quite understandable if one is inspired by Krishna. But are there any ladders in the bhakti? Yes. But becoming a bhakta of Krishna is important, any type. No one goes straight up to become a jnani from day1. The more we think about lord, the more we read about his stories, we will get a broader view of life in general and most importantly, if you are bhakta, you might have noticed, you seem to be the happiest while you are in his thoughts rather than anything. You seem to be guided by him, protected by him, loved by him. This is what bhakti is. But are all these just one's imaginations? Well, You think about this a hundred times, but still you feel so happy in his company, mentally rather than anything and the question simply becomes unwanted. Moreover, It is being said that the lord resides in his names too. And we should never forget, he is residing in our hearts and is our strength within. As the level of intimacy increases, one starts experiencing vairagya-dispassion. When we become less and less materialistic, we become more inquisitive, like- Okay I guess I'm ready to renounce all this, But what's next?

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

SOV writes

But are all these just one's imaginations?

If one is anything less then possessed of the Self, this bhakti is practice... healthy practice no less , good and uplifting, yet not fully blossomed.

Even svāmī prabhupāda states 'devotional service begins after liberation¹ '.

Why so? becuse perfect devotion happens 7x24x365 - and that occurs when one is nyāyena. This is from its root ni that into which a thing goes back i.e. an original type , standard , method. It is in this perfect still-ness we find Being/Self.

It is from this position of vimala विमल - stainless , spotless, , clean , bright , pure, that devotion blossoms and meets the dignity of being at the feet of the Divine.

praṇām

1. Bhāgavad gītā As It Is - Chapter 9, commentary on the 2nd śloka

[SOV]

Continued...

This is the most important thing. There are various philosophies explaining about the ultimate like vedanta, sankya etc. Why would one want to learn when one is happy with the lord. Because at some point we realize the bhakti is inadequate. This is where we have to jump to the jnani state. It is not easy, but if the devotion is pure, one would definitely reach there. That is why it is so important for the bhakti to be pure. How is this purity determined? By not being selfish. The best way to attain selflessness is to show selfless attitude in our daily life. In that way, we will understand the meaning of selflessness. Pure selfless bhakta is jnani. One who understands everything as him, he is a jnani. When everything is him, then how can the bhakta not be him? This is the idea.When one achieves this, then it is very easy to cross the samsara. This is the view of the vedanta.

I posted this because, there were discussion(not here on HDF) that Advaita vedanta doesn't say about bhakti. On the contrary, It is only about bhakti. Take the example of anyone like ramakrishna paramahamsa who repeatedly mentions- If you can't understand scriptures, then there is nothing to lose, Just indulge in bhakti- Adi Shankaracharya has composed so beautiful poems, the most famous being Bhaja Govindam and Shivananda Lahiri. Bhakti could be on anyone like hari, hara, parvathi, skanda.

Thanks for reading.

[SOV]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

SOV writes



If one is anyting less then possessed of the Self, this bhakti is practice... healthy practice no less , good and uplifting, yet not fully blossomed.

Even svāmī prabhupāda states 'devotional service begins after liberation� '.

Why so? becuse perfect devotion happens 7x24x365 - and that occurs when one is nyāyena. This is from its root ni that into which a thing goes back i.e. an original type , standard , method. It is in this perfect still-ness we find Being/Self.

It is from this position of vimala विमल - stainless , spotless, , clean , bright , pure, that devotion blossoms and meets the dignity of being at the feet of the Divine.

praṇām

1. Bhāgavad gītā As It Is - Chapter 9, commentary on the 2nd śloka

Namaste Yajvan,

I agree with you. This is the highest state of bhakti, Nitya-yukta, Firmly established in him.

[Jainarayan]

" Give me a leaf or a flower with bhakti, I shall accept it lovingly"- Bhagavan Shri Krishna in the Gita.

In my opinion, simple acts made with complete devotion and love are at least as important as elaborate rituals.

But are all these just one's imaginations?

Imagination? No, I don't think so. Since I've begun to think of the Lord and keep close to Him as much as I can (but I'm still an imperfect human), I feel more peaceful, even in the face of troubles.

[smaranam]

Namaste SOV

This is a nice thread.

Why would one want to learn when one is happy with the lord. Because at some point we realize the bhakti is inadequate.

N e v e r

This is where we have to jump to the jnani state. It is not easy, but if the devotion is pure, one would definitely reach there...

...without any seperate Jnana Yog because the definition of jnani and liberation is a bit different.

Pure selfless bhakta is jnani. One who understands everything as him, he is a jnani.

Yes, true. However - slight difference in understanding of , for example, a KrushNa-conscious jnani / bhakti yogi and an advaita vedantin jnani.
Play of words : "one who understands everything as him" only in quality or essence, but sees that there is Shakti and ShaktimAn. The shakti belongs to the shaktimAn who is The Original Candle who lights everything else. The shakti is never the self-same shaktimAn. The bhakta sees themselves as a spec, jvAlA of the shakti. This is shakti-pariNAm-vAd. Anadiji, and some other hiding absconding devotees here, will explain it very well.

Advaita vedanta takes you to the point of sameness , but pulls you away from seeing (ACHINTYA) the spiritual variegatedness (BHEDA) in that sameness (ABHEDA). That is why it is only 1% of the whole story. VaishNav siddhanta fill up quite a bit of the 99%, particularly Gaudiya VaishNav.

How do two pure jivAtmA tell each other apart ? was my question too. By their relationship with the ShaktimAn and hence with each other for the ShaktimAn. He remains the centre. Connect via Supersoul (paramAtmA).

When everything is him, then how can the bhakta not be him?

If the bhakta is him, where is the question of bhakti ? One Supreme Soul is only 1% of the story. Everything is KrushNa means everything is shakti of the AdiPurush. If it was not for His Pleasure, why bother with two ? or many with Him in the centre ?

Shrila PrabhupAd and all of VaishNavism says real pure devotional service begins only after liberation or self-realization. But the very same acharya emphasizes what that means : Realization that i am AtmA, spirit-soul, whose eternal purpose AND eternal true nature is to serve and love ParamAtmA. Lord Chaitanya says we are a jvAlA-spark of the fire, ray of the Sun but not the Sun.
The pure bhakta sees paramAtmA in all hearts and is kind and friendly to everyone (BG chap 12, 2, 18) There is no need for me-the-jeevAtmA to be omniscient, omnipotent with all kinds of siddhis and telepathies with everyone.
In my purest state i do not venture to lift the Govardhan or kill BhaumAsur.

Aham BrahmAsmi = I am spiritual, AtmA, spirit-soul, a ray/photon/sunlight(energy) of the Sun, not the material koshas of deha-man-buddhi-ahaMkAr. This can be tricky, but it is explained by shakti-pariNAm , and Jiva Goswami explains (in priti sandarbha) in his Sad-sandarbha series (tattva-sandarbha, priti-sandarbha, krushNa-sandarbha etc.)

I posted this because, there were discussion(not here on HDF) that Advaita vedanta doesn't say about bhakti. On the contrary, It is only about bhakti.

It is about bhakti, and it is bhakti for you, but not the same kind of bhagvad-bhakti for all vedantins where the vishay is Bhagvan - not that there is anything wrong, and certainly everyone is different.

Shankaracharya was in love with GovindA. There are some advaita-vedantins who want nothing to do with Deities, forms, bhAv etc. To them all that is either some fairy tale or stage of mAyA which they will overcome when realized. Any seer-seen vishay , like VAsudev's form, is mistaken for avidya. It is tossed into the same "vyAvahArik" bucket as the tomato, apple, chair, wood, pot ...
KrushNa reciprocates as we surrender.

I have pratyaksha experience of vedantins who told me - the concept of "antaryAmi" is avidyA. The gopis and gopas in Golok also have ShyAmsundar/VAsudev as their antaryAmi. So do UmA, RamA (Lakshmi), VANi, BramhA, Shambhu, NArad, Rukmini, Satyabhama, Uddhav, Arjun, ....

Also, for those whom it is bhakti, is that bhakti eternal if you are not allowed to be the seer or seen, and subject-object bhed-bhAv is avidya ? Certainly KrushNa does not say so :
SB 9.4.63 Bhagvan uvach : "I am completely under the control of My
devotees, indeed, I am not at all independent. Because My devotees are completely devoid of material desires, I sit only within the cores of their hearts. What to speak of My devotees, even those who are devotees of My devotee are very dear to Me."
SB 9.6.64 O best of the brahmanas, _without saintly persons for who I am the only destination I do not desire to enjoy My transcendental bliss and My supreme opulences."
SB 9.6.68 The pure devotee is always within the core of My heart and I am always within the heart of pure devotee. My devotees do not know anything else but Me and I do not know anyone else but them."

Bhakti could be on anyone like hari, hara, parvathi, skanda.

KrushNa says He reciprocates as we surrender.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for sharing.

Om namo bhagavate vAsudevAya ~
praNAm

[SOV]

Namaste Smaranam,

Namaste SOV

This is a nice thread.

N e v e r



...without any seperate Jnana Yog because the definition of jnani and liberation is a bit different.


Yes, true. However - slight difference in understanding of , for example, a KrushNa-conscious jnani / bhakti yogi and an advaita vedantin jnani.
Play of words : "one who understands everything as him" only in quality or essence, but sees that there is Shakti and ShaktimAn. The shakti belongs to the shaktimAn who is The Original Candle who lights everything else. The shakti is never the self-same shaktimAn. The bhakta sees themselves as a spec, jvAlA of the shakti. This is shakti-pariNAm-vAd. Anadiji, and some other hiding absconding devotees here, will explain it very well.

I said our bhakti is inadequate because like yajvan mentioned, we cannot devote 7x24x365. Although we can do that by attributing everything we do to him, as being said in the gita. But to do this type of yajna, we have to first understand that he pervades everywhere. If jiva is thought to be different from krishna(for this instance), then why should we do karma-phala-tyaga? It is then obvious that if jiva is different, then at-least the jiva has to take joy in singing bhajans. To sing bhajans, we need to survive by eating and doing daily work. If we keep on renouncing the fruits of actions, what will one achieve? If it is said that a jiva later goes to some loka to be along with krishna, then Will the jiva care to take food and other things or just constantly sing bhajans or is there a special kind of intimacy there? BTW What is the pramana that one goes to hari loka(or other)? Is there a specific cut-off percentage of bhakti or any other way it is determined? If you say scriptures are the pramana and show me a verse or a paragraph, then does that match your personal experience. Actually there is no room for personal experience here. It is just one theory after another. How is this theory different from the christian heaven and no re-birth theory? If jiva is said to eternal and still different from hari(although subordinate), that means the master(hari) can't destroy a jiva if he wishes to, since the jiva is eternal. He can do every other thing except destroy it. If you say that jiva is him only in essence, then what is jiva without that essence? How do we know that it is his essence and does jiva still has anything without his essence? And also what is not his essence? So that we can categorize things and then come to a conclusion.

Advaita vedanta takes you to the point of sameness , but pulls you away from seeing (ACHINTYA) the spiritual variegatedness (BHEDA) in that sameness (ABHEDA). That is why it is only 1% of the whole story. VaishNav siddhanta fill up quite a bit of the 99%, particularly Gaudiya VaishNav.

Has anyone seen achintya(unthinkable)? where?

How do two pure jivAtmA tell each other apart ? was my question too. By their relationship with the ShaktimAn and hence with each other for the ShaktimAn. He remains the centre. Connect via Supersoul (paramAtmA).

Please explain how

If the bhakta is him, where is the question of bhakti ? One Supreme Soul is only 1% of the story. Everything is KrushNa means everything is shakti of the AdiPurush. If it was not for His Pleasure, why bother with two ? or many with Him in the centre ?

Bhakti is a way of renouncing our ego(jiva) by being established in him. The ego gradually disappears and there will be only him, like it was even before.

Shrila PrabhupAd and all of VaishNavism says real pure devotional service begins only after liberation or self-realization. But the very same acharya emphasizes what that means : Realization that i am AtmA, spirit-soul, whose eternal purpose AND eternal true nature is to serve and love ParamAtmA. Lord Chaitanya says we are a jvAlA-spark of the fire, ray of the Sun but not the Sun.



The pure bhakta sees paramAtmA in all hearts and is kind and friendly to everyone (BG chap 12, 2, 18) There is no need for me-the-jeevAtmA to be omniscient, omnipotent with all kinds of siddhis and telepathies with everyone.
In my purest state i do not venture to lift the Govardhan or kill BhaumAsur.


Aham BrahmAsmi = I am spiritual, AtmA, spirit-soul, a ray/photon/sunlight(energy) of the Sun, not the material koshas of deha-man-buddhi-ahaMkAr. This can be tricky, but it is explained by shakti-pariNAm , and Jiva Goswami explains (in priti sandarbha) in his Sad-sandarbha series (tattva-sandarbha, priti-sandarbha, krushNa-sandarbha etc.)

But where is this atma, Is there a specific place in our body and what does this atma look like, and is my atma different from yours?
Ya but again, there is both paramatma and atma(jivatma?) in all hearts right? It's another thing that how does one see that.

It is about bhakti, and it is bhakti for you, but not the same kind of bhagvad-bhakti for all vedantins where the vishay is Bhagvan - not that there is anything wrong, and certainly everyone is different.

Shankaracharya was in love with GovindA. There are some advaita-vedantins who want nothing to do with Deities, forms, bhAv etc. To them all that is either some fairy tale or stage of mAyA which they will overcome when realized. Any seer-seen vishay , like VAsudev's form, is mistaken for avidya. It is tossed into the same "vyAvahArik" bucket as the tomato, apple, chair, wood, pot ...
KrushNa reciprocates as we surrender.

I have pratyaksha experience of vedantins who told me - the concept of "antaryAmi" is avidyA. The gopis and gopas in Golok also have ShyAmsundar/VAsudev as their antaryAmi. So do UmA, RamA (Lakshmi), VANi, BramhA, Shambhu, NArad, Rukmini, Satyabhama, Uddhav, Arjun, ....

I agree that some rare people will not believe in dieties at all let alone bhakti. But they never deny bhav, that is so important. And Krishna has said in the gita, those who are devoted to my avyakta rupa, they too reach the same state as others. Because he is manifest in both the rupas. Vasudev's eternal nature is formless. Otherwise he can't be antaryami. He will have to cut through people's heart to move about. Nonethe less Vasudev's form is so beautiful to behold. No one dis agrees with that. You say there is antaryami(which advaita agrees) who is the inner ruler. Then you are still different even from that antaryami that you have the independant thinking power to become his devotee. Then what is the antaryami doing inside?what is the meaning of ruler?

Also, for those whom it is bhakti, is that bhakti eternal if you are not allowed to be the seer or seen, and subject-object bhed-bhAv is avidya ?[

It is eternal until the avidya is destroyed. Because bhakti basically is identifying lord in everything. Once we know everything is his 'essence', then there is only his 'essence' that remains and everything else is put to rest.

[smaranam]

Namaste SOV

Please know that i am not trying to convince you or anyone to change your view, only answering questions. Your words in blue.

"But to do this type of yajna, we have to first understand that he pervades everywhere"
So we do that. Studying the Gita tells us He is all-pervading. e.g. BG8.22

"If jiva is thought to be different from krishna(for this instance), then why should we do karma-phala-tyaga?"
Jiva is a part, spec of KrushNa - hence simultaneously same (like our toes and fingers) and different (in magnitude and tattva). Karma-phal-tyAg to get rid of the false-ego. The pure ego that is bare-min sense of individuality alone is kept to serve selflessly.

"Will the jiva care to take food and other things or just constantly sing bhajans or is there a special kind of intimacy there?"
There is no sthul deha for food. No needs like material world. Only lilas. Yes, special kind of intimacy.

"What is the pramana that one goes to hari loka(or other)?"
For VaishNavs : Bhagvad Gita 8.21,22,28 Shrimad BhAgvat mahapurAN, VishNu puran padma puran brahmavaivarta puran...

He Govind Giridhar GhanaShyAmsundar,
Whether You want to
keep me on Bhu-lok
take me off to Golok
place me in Gandharva-lok
or some other lok
please live with me and in my heart forever
and make sure that i
will remember You
birth after birth, and eternally
'cause without Your will
that can't be true
At the time of death
may You assure me:
"don't worry if you don't call Me
I shall call you"
So i'll be in Your arms, be it Golok or Timbaktu
(like Windows : don't call me (OS), I'll call you (application) )

[smaranam]

"If jiva is said to eternal and still different from hari(although subordinate), that means the master(hari) can't destroy a jiva if he wishes to, since the jiva is eternal."
Jiva is a part-shakti of ParamAtmA like sunray::Sun. The Sun will keep having rays. Jiva is tatashtha shakti - on the fence/shore between external material (Durga) and internal spiritual HlAdini (Radha). If she faces the internal (antaranga), chances of going back to external (bahiranga) diminish. Chaitanya Charitramrita.

"If you say that jiva is him only in essence, then what is jiva without that essence?"
Sunray is the Sun only in essence, and cannot exist without the Sun. The problem is mistaking the eternal ray for the Sun itself.

"Bhakti is a way of renouncing our ego(jiva) by being established in him. The ego gradually disappears and there will be only him, like it was even before."
Bhakti is only a way for Kevala Advaita followers, once the set goal is reached it is irrelevant - you said it.
It is the eternal natural state for a bhakta. A VishNu bhakta eliminates false ego which is selfish, but cannot give up individual existence. (pl. see SB 9.4.63-68)
Neither can the advaitin. They just do not think like an individual anymore, but ParaBrahman knows one point in co-ordinate space from another, Ocean knows one drop from another, whether it travels from Atlantic to Indian to Antarctic.

[SOV]

Namaste Smaranam,
I am quite sure we wont reach a point of agreement in this regard. But I personally feel that Krishna doesn't see wheather one is an advaitin or vaishnava. One has to go beyond these tags. 'sarva dharman parityajya, mamekam sharanam vraja'.These philosophies are like a boat. And I personally feel that one can reach him by his will alone.