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Thread: The Ultimate Difference

  1. #1
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    The Ultimate Difference

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    I have learned over the years to avoid debates on Christianity verses sanātana dharma . Why so? because they are deeply passionate and no one leaves the room with a changed mind or inspired idea. It is a point counter-point scenario.


    But when one gets past all the angst between the two views, the wrongs that have been done, the conversions ( missionaries)
    that are attempted, the history of the crusades, the validity of Jesus, multiple devatā-s, the only way to the Supreme, all that -
    what is the ultimate difference that, to me, is of the greatest import? The fundamental premise of two different views of dharma. Let me explain.

    When we look at dharma the parochial view of this word is ~duty~. I guess this definition is good if one is on an elevator going from one floor to another and some one asked for a quick definition in 2 words or less, duty may suffice. Yet this word is quiet important to the conversation at hand. Dharma is rooted in dhṛ meaning to hold or bear, to uphold, support, maintain , preserve , keep.


    Two views of dharma
    • pravṛtti dharma
    • nirvṛtti dharma
    • pravṛtti - conduct , behavior , practice ; accomplishment of the object
    • nirvṛtti - without occupation; termination
    Pravṛtti dharma are those actions that when upheld/supported (dharma) lead to the accomplishment (pravṛtti) of an aim.
    The ultimate aim is the attainment of heaven - hence the final abode Christians seek.


    Nirvṛtti dharma are those actions that when upheld/supported (dharma) lead to the termination of the binding influence of actions.
    The ultimate aim is Self-realization, mokṣa. Hence the final result of one practicing sanātana dharma in a focused way.

    Note that the upaniṣad-s inform us the heaven, a wonder place indeed, is also temporary and after one has exhausted their actions that led to this benefit, the return to birth and death marches on. It is not the final resting place, this is key.

    We can see the differences here ? Yet note, to accomplish things on this earth is a good thing, no? How would one provide for one's family, substance, rights and rituals, society without accomplishments (pravṛtti). The pickle occurs when one confuses this as the only mission on this earth - of accomplishments , culminating in the attainment of heaven as an object of success.


    This IMHO is the firm foundation for substantial differences in views, practices, and behaviors between the two groups aforementioned.
    From these differences spring likes , dislikes, actions that provoke contempt and the like.

    Hence as I see it the ultimate difference is that of pravṛtti and nirvṛtti.

    praṇām

    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: The Ultimate Difference

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post

    Pravṛtti dharma are those actions that when upheld/supported (dharma) lead to the accomplishment (pravṛtti) of an aim.
    The ultimate aim is the attainment of heaven - hence the final abode Christians seek.
    Christians have moral laws of behavior, 10 commandments, etc. It is acting correctly , yet for the attainment of heaven. Do this now and you will be rewarded later. I am fine with this as it ( should) create a better society. But take note, it is for the attainment of heaven.


    Nirvṛtti dharma are those actions that when upheld/supported (dharma) lead to the termination of the binding influence of actions. The ultimate aim is Self-realization, mokṣa. Hence the final result of one practicing sanātana dharma in a focused way


    Sanātana dharma also has rules and guidelines, yes ? The manusmṛti some call mānava-dharmaśāstra, yama and niyama are all there to create an orderly society. Yet where sanātana dharma excels is in its comprehension for the fullness of life that comes via Self-realization. The abundance of a spiritual life says you do nothing and accomplish every thing... this has confused many a person for eons. Yet it is true.

    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: The Ultimate Difference

    Your post is so wonderfully profound and simple that it bring the Truth full round.

    The xtian call themself the lamb, and this is most true.

    The lamb is the begining of a sheeps life...it is very profound.

    Look at the lives led with relative ease? I see the throngs of xtian live in comfort and never even think of the things brought up in this forum in a most casual way...they have a list in this life and they check it off as they proceed toward the goal/heaven.

    I think of them often and know this state from the kindergarten class...the class is made to comfort...to get the child comfortable with the learning. Parties are so common...and you can bring a blanket or toy even to school. They have a nap and also a snack of cookies during the day...so wonderfully blissful this time is...and there is little learning to be seen on the outward appearance.

    As this progresses, you get into far less comfort...and at about fourth grade here...the lustre is gone from the paint.

    Gone are the parties, and the hard work begins.

    But, if it were not for those crucial early lessons, the fourth grade could not be a place of learning.

    For during those parties, children learned to speak to others kindly...and during those cookie breaks...the children learned to share as each of them took a turn bringing the snack each week for class. You could see the pride in their young eyes as they pass their special snack from home out for all to share. "This is my day to share a snack."

    That's not to say, that there are not children in this kindergarten class that are not far more complex than the others...and quickly moves on to higher class as their life progresses..

    and also some, by their own hand, become dropped down from their higher place of learning to repeat a grade.

    This realm was set up with the snacks going to the lower classes...and it may seemed turn upon its end because of this...but since the higher goal is one not of this world...we do leave these snacks to those still strung upon the lower portions of this ladder.

    Just yesterday, as the man came to appraise the home, my oldest son knows the family which are very staunch southern baptists. My son wanted me to remove Beloved from the various various sundry locations which He is place around my home so that the man would not penalize us for our Love of Shiva, Visnu and Krishna....and I refused.

    He ask me..."You would give up this chance to bring more money in this house to help support this large family because of your beliefs?"

    and I say..."I will NOT deny my Lord His Place in this Home it is His Home."

    It is all HIS.

    Yes, I chose Beloved, over more money...over a possibly easier life...if the man give us bad appraisal because he is very staunch xtian then I know this is just another portion of my karma to prove this without a doubt that I do get this lesson I do get it very well.

    So we fourth graders choose Beloved over fame and fortune...and I will not ever regret it.

    Beloved Portion, you use the learned words from this wondrous set of religious beliefs that truly cuts to the very root of the problem, forgive my more mundane approach...but your words are so wholly reflected in the observations from this hill that I had to come place them side by side.

    I am at your Feet.

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    Re: The Ultimate Difference

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    namast

    I have learned over the years to avoid debates on Christianity verses sanātana dharma .

    Vannakam Yajvan: Yes so have I. I am mostly just the observer now. It would be rare to see someone actually change an opinion, although I have seen it ... not so much within the aforementioned debate, but just be reading what another has to say.

    It certainly is a catalysing topic for the fingers to get typing. A troll can get so many responses in so little time. I have also been guilty, but then usually without fail, upon reflection a few days later, I come to realise that nothing much has been accomplished. With no beneficial accomplishment resulting from an action, then what's the point? I have better things to do.

    Aum Namasivaya

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