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Thread: Nilakantha

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    Re: Nilakantha

    Namaste Yajvan,
    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    I can see multiple posts on this matter... would it not be advisable to extract the greatest amount of good by starting with the notion of the cosmic ocean? What is its definition?

    Thanks for the post. Yes definitely, it would be better to start from the beginning. The turbulent cosmic ocean is the mind, and the waves are endless thoughts within it. The devas and asuras are the positive and negative elements in the mind constantly battling each other, thus keeping the mind unsteady. Would this be fair to say?

    a myth (mythos) is a sacred story concerning the origins of the world or how the world and the creatures in it came to have their present form. The active beings in myths are generally gods and heroes. Myths often are said to take place before recorded history begins. In saying that a myth is a sacred narrative, what is meant is that a myth is believed to be true by people who attach religious or spiritual significance to it."

    If I’m not mistaken, another term used to describe such sacred literature is mythopoesy.

    OM Shanti,
    A.



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    Re: Nilakantha

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    namase Agnideva,
    I don't know why we can't just take the literal meaning of the story and why we have to look for esoteric meaning...but that's just my feeling only.
    Namaste satay,
    this is a very reasonable consideration. Let me see if I can answer it in the following way. The rsi's ( kavi) that cognized the ved via 'seeing' (drsti) and 'hearing' ( sruti) used their discrimination (viveka) to transmit this knowledge to others. They chose slesa, or double messages for multiple reasons:
    a. to pack as much knowledge per word/mantra as possible
    b. to protect the knowledge
    It is their brilliance that they chose this, yet for people in ignorance ( that would be me), it takes others of enlightened vision to 'decode' the message. It has much to do with the mantra, its meter (chandas) as to the unfoldment of this knowledge.

    Next, which I find most interesting, even the deveta prefer the indirect way. Who says so? The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.2.2) points out that the devata prefer/like the indirect names ( they are called) vs. direct names. Example in this valli uis the name of Indra. His name is Indha ( or illuminating or lustrous) yet prefers Indra; They , the devata are fond of indirect names. This is also called out in the Aitareya Upanishad 3.14, and there Indra's original name is called Idandra - or "IT Seeing".
    [ let me thank Indra for His blessings and the ability to identify Him in this manner - as Indra is 'divine mind' ]

    Let me start a new post on this , I will post the words of the ved. I am no expert and this will be from my readings and look to be corrected/improved and advanced by others on this forum with more resolute knowledge.
    pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 16 October 2008 at 11:21 AM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  3. #13
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    Re: Nilakantha

    Namaste all,

    This sort of answers my own original question. I found a site that explains the symbolism of the above story, and I found it quite helpful. So, I thought I'd post it here for everyone's benefit.

    Now the symbolism hidden in this story is this.

    The story represents the spiritual endeavor of man for gaining immortality through concentration of mind, withdrawal of senses, control of desires and practice of austerities and asceticism.

    The gods represent the pleasure principle in ourselves. The demons represent the pain principle. The gods also represent the senses, while the demons the evil and negative thoughts and impulses. The participation of both the devas and the demons signify the fact that when one is seeking immortality through the spiritual practice one has to integrate and harmonize both the positive and negative aspects of ones personality and put both the energies for the common goal.

    The ocean of milk is the mind or the human consciousness. The mind is always compared to an ocean (mano sagaram) while the thoughts and emotions to the waves. The mind as an ocean is in fact a universal symbol, known to other religions and cultures also.

    Mandhara, the mountain stands for concentration. The word "mandhara" contains two words "man" (mind) and "dhara" ( a single line) which means holding the mind in one line. This is possible only during mental concentration.

    The mountain mandhara was upheld by Lord Vishnu as a Tortoise. The tortoise here stands for the withdrawal of the senses into one self as one practices mental concentration and meditation or contemplation. It also suggests that the mind should rest itself upon or freely surrender itself to the divine will.

    The great serpent Vasuki stands for desire. The desire is always compared to a thousand hooded serpent. The Vasuki used in the churning of the ocean denotes that the devas and the demons held desire (to seek immortality) as a rope and churned the mind with the help of concentration and withdrawal of the senses. You can hold desire in your hands and manipulate it only when you have control over your desires. So control of desire is suggested through this symbolism.

    The halahal represents suffering and pain we undergo at the beginning of spiritual sadhana. When the mind is subjected to intense churning by opposing forces, the first thing that comes out of the process is intense suffering and great inner turmoil. We are told by many that when an initiate starts his spiritual sadhana he faces a number of difficulties. The problems become intensified because of inner conflicts, where one part yearns to pursue the spiritual path while the other opposes it.

    In the initial stages of sadhana a seeker's mind throws out all kinds of reactions, negative thoughts, desires and impulses out into open so that he can deal with them appropriately. These problems are basically physical suffering and mental suffering without resolving which further progress is not possible. In short we can say that halahal is the instability of the body and the mind that arise as a counter reaction against ones spiritual practice.

    Lord Shiva represents the ascetic principle. He is the Destroyer of illusion, one who is innerly detached, pure and austere. His role in this story as the consumer of poison suggests that one can deal with the early problems of spiritual life, such as the instability of the mind and its restlessness, by cultivating the qualities of Lord Shiva, namely, courage, initiative, willingness, discipline, simplicity, austerity, detachment, compassion, pure love and asceticism.

    Alternatively it also means gaining control over the mind through breath control. Lord Shiva is Controller of breath. He is Prananath, or Praneshwar, Lord of the Breath. In spiritual sadhana, it is essential that one gains complete mastery over ones breathing pattern. Many spiritually advanced souls have the capacity to hold their breath in their throat, near the palate, as they meditate.

    The various objects that came out of the ocean during the churning stand for the psychic or spiritual powers (siddhis) which one gains as he progresses spiritually from stage to stage. These siddhis are spiritual powes which come to a seeker as he progresses on the spiritual path. We are told that a seeker is to be careful about these powers as they can hamper his progress unless he uses them judiciously, not for his selfish gains but for others' welfare. This is the reason why the gods and demons distributed these powers among others without keeping anything for themselves as they did not want to lose sight of their original aim which was to gain immortality. Dhanvantarari stands for health. The vessel containing the amrit was brought before the gods and the demons by Dhanvantari, the divine physician. This signifies that immortality can be achieved only when the body and the mind are in a perfect state of health. Spiritual success is not possible in case of a person who is mentally or physically sick or whose gross body is not fit for receiving divine illumination.

    Lord Vishnu in the form of Mohini stands for delusion of the mind in the form of pride. It is the pride of achievement to which the asuras or the demons succumbed and thus lost their right to enter into the world of immortality. Pride and egoism are the last hurdles one has to overcome in spiritual life before experiencing self-realization.

    This is in brief the symbolism hidden in the story of Sagar manthan.

    Source
    OM Shanti,
    A.



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    Re: Nilakantha

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Agnideva,
    I have read the following from the past post...thank you for bringing this up and your research on symbols:
    • The gods represent the pleasure principle in ourselves. The demons represent the pain principle. ...
    • The ocean of milk is the mind or the human consciousness. The mind is always compared to an ocean (mano sagaram) while the thoughts and emotions to the waves. The mind as an ocean is in fact a universal symbol, known to other religions and cultures also.
    • Mandhara, the mountain stands for concentration
    From my teachings and studies I have a different view of these. Not sure of which gods the author is referring to, yet if the devata, then I believe these may be a bit off the mark. The devata are in fact cosmic impulses that exist. We, in the final analysis, that is our phycial bodies are the play and display of the 3 gunas. Our SELF is devoid of these 3 guna, as IT is beyond the 3 gunas. More on this in a differnent post, I want to get to the next section ( but will address this later if I may).

    The ocean of milk, is that of eternity, even bliss, the ocean of the Absolute. Think of Sri Visnu resting on Ananta ( the snake), the symbol for the infinite.
    So we have:
    Vishnu - the all pervading
    Ananta - from a or not + Anta or end. So the snake that Sri Vsnu lays down on has no end, or infinite/infinity.
    Ocean of Milk - throughout the veda, ocean and water is associated with consciousness. The ocean of milk ( purity or sukla of milk, finest substance, then) is the purity of consciousness. The Ocean ( without bounds) of milk , or purity and sweetness, is that pure consciousness of the transcendent. We also hear of 'streams' too... flowing waters ( of consciousness ) this is Saraswati. Flowing consciousess of luminious thought, that is , of inspiration, of richly luminious consciousness, based in the Absolute.

    So we have the All Prevading, rests on the Infinite, within the transcendent, some call Bliss. This is a much different view then that of above ( and one that I subscribe to).

    Now that said the devata that are rascals , some call demons, some rakshasa....we find them to be the dasyus, the danavas, the vrtas, the children of Diti or of divided nature. Some even call them the 'sense trafficker's - the horders of light.
    And they hide things from the native - where? in the mountains - the symbol for hardness of consciousness. In the veda they are seen hiding the cows (gau) in the mountains. Now, why would the kavi (rishi's) mention this? Cow's are the symbols for light , spiritual light no less.
    What else does the cow produce? Milk, the other symbol and butter for which we get ghee... the ghee is the symbol for the golden colored, pure, rich counsciousness! Ahhh.... all connected. But why are the danava's hiding the cows ( the light) in the Mountains? what is this hardness and this inertness? Ignorance! Ignorance that behind our thoughts is the reserviour of bliss consciousness that is there ( running) all the time, but who takes it from us? Our senses no less. ( the panis as the sense traffickers). Yet this ocean of bliss is behind the thoughts, where they are behind the senses, yes? What is there, then behind this? ....the SELF behind our 'self'.

    So, once we begin to understand this, we ask the devata for help ( yajya) and through this (yajna) Soma is produced ( the delight of existence)... thus we are delighted, and bliss is obtained, even for an instant. And we as humans are attracted like bee's to honey (madhu we find in the Upanishads). Now I have not experienced this bliss, but I do experience delight from actions, not every action, but its easy to identify it when this delight pours out. This nourshes the devata and they rejoice.
    Now, we gravitate to this joy and we all look for more of this. This can be 'more' fun, happiness, houses, car's, money, wifes, friendships, boats, knowledge, etc. This desire for more, more then just a fleeting moment of happiness is our march.
    This is 'hard wired' into us, to seek out this joy, happiness, delight. The only place we are completely satisfied is when we bath in it. This then has us looking for this all the time ( life afer life), wanting for this non stop joy... this is the motivation to find HIM, that fullness, that Bhuma, the fulless that one bathes in the SELF and is delighted, not having to go outside ones SELF to find Fullness - that is the spiritual experince of Moksa, of being with your Ishtadevata, of Dharmamega ( cloud pouring virtue).

    Its pointed out in the Gita , starting Chapt 3.9 , Krshna discusses how yajya sustains the devata and they sustain us. This is quite profound and worth the study. That is, the fruit of every action is the response of nature, yes? This is the laws of physics. We have freedom over actions alone never their fruits , says Krsna. It is our responsibility to give this offering to the devata. Krsna says 'he who enjoys their gifts ( from the devata i.e. the responses of nature) without offering to them is merely a thief' .
    So , this relationship with the devata is profound and key to our upliftment and advancement...Hence the Veda's discuss this in depth, but the knowledge is given to those that study, the wise, the ones with guru's that can convert the wise sayings of the veda to the sisya, and finally to those that are posessed of the SELF. Then it all comes together.

    More on this with your repsonse if you care to discuss, but wanted to start the 'ocean and water conversation' with this post. Thank you for letting me discuss this most uplifting concept.

    JalamVishnuh sthalam vishnuh vishnur-aakaashmuchhate
    sarvamjagam vishnuh sarvam vishnumayam jagat
    translates roughly to
    Water is Vishnu, Land is Vishnu, the whole sky/space is Vishnu
    The whole World is Vishnu and Vishnu is the Whole World


    Pranams,
    Last edited by yajvan; 04 January 2007 at 11:32 PM.
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  5. #15
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    Re: Nilakantha

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Agnideva,
    I have read the following from the past post...thank you for bringing this up and your research on symbols:
    • The gods represent the pleasure principle in ourselves. The demons represent the pain principle. ...
    • The ocean of milk is the mind or the human consciousness. The mind is always compared to an ocean (mano sagaram) while the thoughts and emotions to the waves. The mind as an ocean is in fact a universal symbol, known to other religions and cultures also.
    • Mandhara, the mountain stands for concentration
    From my teachings and studies I have a different view of these. Not sure of which gods the author is referring to, yet if the devata, then I believe these may be a bit off the mark. The devata are in fact cosmic impulses that exist. We, in the final analysis, that is our phycial bodies are the play and display of the 3 gunas. Our SELF is devoid of these 3 guna, as IT is beyond the 3 gunas. More on this in a differnent post, I want to get to the next section ( but will address this later if I may).

    The ocean of milk, is that of eternity, even bliss, the ocean of the Absolute. Think of Sri Visnu resting on Ananta ( the snake), the symbol for the infinite.
    So we have:
    Vishnu - the all pervading
    Ananta - from a or not + Anta or end. So the snake that Sri Vsnu lays down on has no end, or infinite/infinity.
    Ocean of Milk - throughout the veda, ocean and water is associated with consciousness. The ocean of milk ( purity or sukla of milk, finest substance, then) is the purity of consciousness. The Ocean ( without bounds) of milk , or purity and sweetness, is that pure consciousness of the transcendent. We also hear of 'streams' too... flowing waters ( of consciousness ) this is Saraswati. Flowing consciousess of luminious thought, that is , of inspiration, of richly luminious consciousness, based in the Absolute.

    So we have the All Prevading, rests on the Infinite, within the transcendent, some call Bliss. This is a much different view then that of above ( and one that I subscribe to).

    Now that said the devata that are rascals , some call demons, some rakshasa....we find them to be the dasyus, the danavas, the vrtas, the children of Diti or of divided nature. Some even call them the 'sense trafficker's - the horders of light.
    And they hide things from the native - where? in the mountains - the symbol for hardness of consciousness. In the veda they are seen hiding the cows (gau) in the mountains. Now, why would the kavi (rishi's) mention this? Cow's are the symbols for light , spiritual light no less.
    What else does the cow produce? Milk, the other symbol and butter for which we get ghee... the ghee is the symbol for the golden colored, pure, rich counsciousness! Ahhh.... all connected. But why are the danava's hiding the cows ( the light) in the Mountains? what is this hardness and this inertness? Ignorance! Ignorance that behind our thoughts is the reserviour of bliss consciousness that is there ( running) all the time, but who takes it from us? Our senses no less. ( the panis as the sense traffickers). Yet this ocean of bliss is behind the thoughts, where they are behind the senses, yes? What is there, then behind this? ....the SELF behind our 'self'.

    So, once we begin to understand this, we ask the devata for help ( yajya) and through this (yajna) Soma is produced ( the delight of existence)... thus we are delighted, and bliss is obtained, even for an instant. And we as humans are attracted like bee's to honey (madhu we find in the Upanishads). Now I have not experienced this bliss, but I do experience delight from actions, not every action, but its easy to identify it when this delight pours out. This nourshes the devata and they rejoice.
    Now, we gravitate to this joy and we all look for more of this. This can be 'more' fun, happiness, houses, car's, money, wifes, friendships, boats, knowledge, etc. This desire for more, more then just a fleeting moment of happiness is our march.
    This is 'hard wired' into us, to seek out this joy, happiness, delight. The only place we are completely satisfied is when we bath in it. This then has us looking for this all the time ( life afer life), wanting for this non stop joy... this is the motivation to find HIM, that fullness, that Bhuma, the fulless that one bathes in the SELF and is delighted, not having to go outside ones SELF to find Fullness - that is the spiritual experince of Moksa, of being with your Ishtadevata, of Dharmamega ( cloud pouring virtue).

    Its pointed out in the Gita , starting Chapt 3.9 , Krshna discusses how yajya sustains the devata and they sustain us. This is quite profound and worth the study. That is, the fruit of every action is the response of nature, yes? This is the laws of physics. We have freedom over actions alone never their fruits , says Krsna. It is our responsibility to give this offering to the devata. Krsna says 'he who enjoys their gifts ( from the devata i.e. the responses of nature) without offering to them is merely a thief' .
    So , this relationship with the devata is profound and key to our upliftment and advancement...Hence the Veda's discuss this in depth, but the knowledge is given to those that study, the wise, the ones with guru's that can convert the wise sayings of the veda to the sisya, and finally to those that are posessed of the SELF. Then it all comes together.

    More on this with your repsonse if you care to discuss, but wanted to start the 'ocean and water conversation' with this post. Thank you for letting me discuss this most uplifting concept.

    JalamVishnuh sthalam vishnuh vishnur-aakaashmuchhate
    sarvamjagam vishnuh sarvam vishnumayam jagat
    translates roughly to
    Water is Vishnu, Land is Vishnu, the whole sky/space is Vishnu
    The whole World is Vishnu and Vishnu is the Whole World


    Pranams,

    Namaskar Yajvan ji.

    Well. I could find nothing related to Neelkantha in your post. By the way, do you know a person who sometime ago appeared as Ramkish in this forum? If you do not know him then just ignore this please. Just a curiosity.


    Om Namah Shivayya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  6. #16
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    Re: Nilakantha

    Hari Om
    ~~~~~
    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee View Post
    Namaskar Yajvan ji.

    Well. I could find nothing related to Neelkantha in your post. By the way, do you know a person who sometime ago appeared as Ramkish in this forum? If you do not know him then just ignore this please. Just a curiosity. Om Namah Shivayya
    Namaste Banerjee,

    Namaste Atanu Banerjee,
    Yes, you are correct... Neelkantha was not in this last post.
    There are two subjects going on at the same time...( go figure);
    One is Neelkantha , the other is all about symbolism that has been brought up by Agnideva and the others. Some have mentioned why even consider symbolism and just read it a face value...others say, why Siva has a snake around his neck, why a blue neck, etc.

    Please look on page one of the posts , where Agni Deva picks up on the following idea ( below) then continues with his last post on symbolizm.
    My response tries to address this notion:
    From Agnideva:
    "The turbulent cosmic ocean is the mind, and the waves are endless thoughts within it. The devas and asuras are the positive and negative elements in the mind constantly battling each other, thus keeping the mind unsteady. Would this be fair to say?"

    My response tries to addess the ocean, the deva, etc. Hope this helps and the post was of some value - probably best to start a new post ?
    Let me do that... Also I do not know Ramkish.

    Pranams,
    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  7. #17
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    Re: Nilakantha

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Banerjee,

    Namaste Atanu Banerjee,
    ---
    From Agnideva:
    "The turbulent cosmic ocean is the mind, and the waves are endless thoughts within it. The devas and asuras are the positive and negative elements in the mind constantly battling each other, thus keeping the mind unsteady. Would this be fair to say?"

    From Yajvan
    The ocean of milk, is that of eternity, even bliss, the ocean of the Absolute.

    -------

    Pranams,
    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    I see that I received two salutations, as Banerjee and as Atanu Banerjee. Any symbolism?

    Yes, I now understand that you addressed the ocean part only. In this respect, I personally feel that both the views are appropriate. One gives the microcosmic and another gives the macrocosmic view. But as it is said that the microcosm contains the macrocosm --- and consiousness is indeed the ocean. The ocean signifies the consciousness (which again is nothing but the pure bliss) and the poison, the result of our effort to extract the Ghrita (purify the consciousness).

    The story also helps to get rid off the myth that there are boundaries among the Gods. In this case, Shiva becomes the sustainer and elsewhere Vishnu becomes the destroyer. Naraayana is the Guru who gives Shiva knowledge. And Shiva, as Rudra, after explaining in detail how, when, and where He worships Vishnu and Brahma, states that ALL worship Me as Naraayana all the time (Rudra Gita).



    Anyway,

    I may prefer to have your view on the blue throat in this post and not in a new post, since this post is dedicated.


    Om Neelkantha
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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    Re: Nilakantha

    Quote Originally Posted by yajvan View Post
    Hari Om
    ~~~~~

    Namaste Banerjee,

    Namaste Atanu Banerjee,
    Yes, you are correct... Neelkantha was not in this last post.
    There are two subjects going on at the same time...( go figure);
    One is Neelkantha , the other is all about symbolism that has been brought up by Agnideva and the others. Some have mentioned why even consider symbolism and just read it a face value...others say, why Siva has a snake around his neck, why a blue neck, etc.

    Please look on page one of the posts , where Agni Deva picks up on the following idea ( below) then continues with his last post on symbolizm.
    My response tries to address this notion:
    From Agnideva:
    "The turbulent cosmic ocean is the mind, and the waves are endless thoughts within it. The devas and asuras are the positive and negative elements in the mind constantly battling each other, thus keeping the mind unsteady. Would this be fair to say?"

    My response tries to addess the ocean, the deva, etc. Hope this helps and the post was of some value - probably best to start a new post ?
    Let me do that... Also I do not know Ramkish.

    Pranams,

    Namaste,

    In meditation, I've found that there is a point at which the "mind" struggles to retain its unity, its, um, otherness to avoid being made meaningless in the endlessness (ocean) of lack of sensation/overwhelming sensation. The balance of focus on a blinding point of black hole is not only sure death, but also is salvation in complete (as in hold not one thing back) surrender to it as well.

    Y'all know I'm no hindu, so please forgive my lay interpretation; I offer it only for what its worth to any or none

    To me, the neck relates to the throat chakra; the snake Kundalini; blue is the color of those who walk outside of time. Could it be so simple?



    ZN
    yaireva patanaM dravyaiH siddhistaireva choditA .
    shrI kauladarshane chApi bhairaveNa mahAtmanA .

    It is revealed in the sacred doctrine of Kula and by the great Bhairava, that the perfection is achieved by that very means by which fall occurs.

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    Re: Nilakantha

    Quote Originally Posted by Znanna View Post
    Y'all know I'm no hindu, so please forgive my lay interpretation; I offer it only for what its worth to any or none

    To me, the neck relates to the throat chakra; the snake Kundalini; blue is the color of those who walk outside of time. Could it be so simple?

    ZN
    Namaste ZN,

    Very interesting ZN ... I never thought of it that way. The throat chakra, the vishuddha, yes, I'm sure it has something to do with that . Outside of time also makes sense ... Mahakaleshwara. Hmm, thanks.

    BTW, you need not be Hindu to understand Hindu principles, you're a walking example of that .

    Regards,
    A.



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    Re: Nilakantha

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    Namaste ZN,

    Very interesting ZN ... I never thought of it that way. The throat chakra, the vishuddha, yes, I'm sure it has something to do with that . Outside of time also makes sense ... Mahakaleshwara. Hmm, thanks.

    BTW, you need not be Hindu to understand Hindu principles, you're a walking example of that .

    Regards,
    A.

    The being who is in time -- seems to have colour -- only this little, still the being who is beyond time -- white.

    He stands at the sandhi, the bridge -- knowing this and that, encompassing both. Aja Ekpad.

    Aja Ekpad.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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