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Thread: Still having issues with Brahman.

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    Still having issues with Brahman.

    So Brahman is the ultimate reality, and when it manifests it manifests as Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Shakti and so forth. Am I correct so far?

    I just find issue that when Brahman manifests into different deities, why are they so different from one another? Do they have their own personalities?

    It also seems as if it's better understood symbolically. Shiva is the aspect of God that destroys, Vishnu--preserves, Brahma--creates. This symbolic understanding can make some to believe that the gods are symbolic rather than actual physical beings. So are they actual beings? If they are actual being--how is it possible to be so separate from Brahman but so equal?

    Am I separate from Brahman, too? But still equal?
    I am taste in water, son of Kunti,
    I am light in the moon and sun.
    The sacred syllable Om of all the Vedas,
    Sound in ether, manliness in men.
    [vii.8-10]

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    There are three keys to the door....and each may look a bit different...but every one opens the door just as well.

    There are three streams to Beloved....each one will give you safe passage to His Beautiful Ocean of Love.

    Each one of these Beloved Beings is riddled with symbolism...they want you to get it...so they carry things ....have hand gestures...even their posture and musical instruments is a clue to the way. But, each of them, even with all of these symbols is absolutely present and real.

    We only see them as separate because we need them to be....but the day will come when you no longer need such a thing.

    Right now...I need Beloved Shiva to be my Guru...but I know my Father so well...this game we play is only part of this incarnation's leela. Soon I will not be here anymore and this game will end...and our relationship we be restored to the fullest state.

    WTyler, how separate and equal you are is directly related to several things...one is actions...one is thoughts...and one is words....many things make this up...one very important one is belief in who you are and behaving that way.

    Only you can answer this final question, over lifetime or lifetimes this answer will change till you no longer have to ask...

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Quote Originally Posted by WTyler View Post
    So Brahman is the ultimate reality, and when it manifests it manifests as Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Shakti and so forth. Am I correct so far?

    I just find issue that when Brahman manifests into different deities, why are they so different from one another? Do they have their own personalities?

    It also seems as if it's better understood symbolically. Shiva is the aspect of God that destroys, Vishnu--preserves, Brahma--creates. This symbolic understanding can make some to believe that the gods are symbolic rather than actual physical beings. So are they actual beings? If they are actual being--how is it possible to be so separate from Brahman but so equal?

    Am I separate from Brahman, too? But still equal?
    The Brahman doesn't manifest only as Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva ... It is manifesting Himself even as Wtyler right now ! Is Wtyler a symbolic realty or a physical reality ?

    These forms of God are as real as you are. However, imho, you are too much attached to form and the attributes ... the Formless alone is the infinite forms around us and That alone which is Attributeless manifests Itself as full of infinite attributes ! So, relax. It is not such a big deal.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Quote Originally Posted by WTyler View Post
    So Brahman is the ultimate reality, and when it manifests it manifests as Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Shakti and so forth. Am I correct so far?
    Namasté WTyler
    You have received solid answers already, and I am looking forward to reading more from our friends too.

    Everything is Brahman. Because everything is Brahman we can also say the Lord is Brahman. Shiva, Krishna, Maa etc are equally divine.

    The reason is that for anything to exist, it depends on something else to confirm its existence first. So to confirm that there is a monitor in front of you, you must be able to confirm yourself (existence). Sometimes we forget that we are looking at the monitor and instead our minds wander off with the content on the screen.

    This analogy applies to many things in life. We become so caught up that we forget that we are not the thinking mind, instead we become it. This is why mediation, japa, puja and yoga all serve to bring us back to our principle self, which is pure existence and through which everything else depends.

    This is why all deities can be described as manifesting from that pure existence. The pure existence is called Brahman. Really there is no difference, except for name and form which we perceive in each one i.e. Lord Shiva, Sri Krishna, Maa etc.

    I just find issue that when Brahman manifests into different deities, why are they so different from one another? Do they have their own personalities?
    Difference is the spice of life. In order for Brahman to experience and know Itself It expanded. The difference and change is a fact of life which makes life rich and full of experience. As the Lord is omnipotent, there is no end of sensual experiences and variety for His pleasure. Some say this is experienced through you.

    The deities can be perceived to have different personalities. Their personality changes too, sometimes they can be full of love, for others they are a force to fight against. If we read the puruanas we find the Lord changes depending on the devotee's need, for the asuras (deamons) they need to fight Him. For the gopis they need His love and attention.

    Personality itself depends on existence, so it is real once divine existence is confirmed as the foundation for all phenomena. Personality depends on the Lord, and so there can be variety. Likewise we can approach the Lord through negation of personality or through the unmanifest, spiritual force. It depends on the devotees need. Our needs change, so we don't need to be too hard on ourselves.

    So why do some Guru insist on certain personalities, deities or forms?
    My opinion is that that is the way the Lord appeared for them, that was their need and through which all doubts were cut away. So the Guru goes forth and a shares this love, she/he may explain and insist that the Lord is Durga, or Krishna, for that was her/his experience. This is why we see sects and different ways to reach the Lord.


    It also seems as if it's better understood symbolically. Shiva is the aspect of God that destroys, Vishnu--preserves, Brahma--creates. This symbolic understanding can make some to believe that the gods are symbolic rather than actual physical beings. So are they actual beings? If they are actual being--how is it possible to be so separate from Brahman but so equal?

    Am I separate from Brahman, too? But still equal?
    It if fair to understand it symbolically. It will help you if you feel it puts your mind at rest and allows you to focus and come closer to the Lord, divine existence, Brahman. The three gunas, and the use of the three deities to represent them is, in my opinion, a way to help us understand that all differences (gunas) are in fact the same divine force (the three Lords).

    All matter, material, is separated by time and space. Both time and space are IN Brahman, not separate to Brahman, they depend on Brahman too. It is through our senses that we come to see apparent divides between bodies (two friends for example) in space over time. Likewise the avatars can appear as actual beings to our mortal senses.

    As others have explained, you are not separated, you never were and never will be. All that is acting to separate you is the mind's questions which still need an answer.

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Quote Originally Posted by WTyler View Post
    So Brahman is the ultimate reality, and when it manifests it manifests as Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Shakti and so forth. Am I correct so far?

    I just find issue that when Brahman manifests into different deities, why are they so different from one another? Do they have their own personalities?

    It also seems as if it's better understood symbolically. Shiva is the aspect of God that destroys, Vishnu--preserves, Brahma--creates. This symbolic understanding can make some to believe that the gods are symbolic rather than actual physical beings. So are they actual beings? If they are actual being--how is it possible to be so separate from Brahman but so equal?

    Am I separate from Brahman, too? But still equal?
    Dear Tyler Et al.

    This entire universe was then undifferentiated/ unmanifested.

    THAT manifested itself as name and form. Thus it was said one has such and such a name and such and such a form. Therefore even today this world is differentiated by name and form.

    This Self entered into bodies up to the very tips of the nails, as a razor lies hidden in its case, or as fire, as the sustainer of the world, hidden in its receptacle.

    People perceive Him, not completely indeed, when he is names prana functioning as vitality, named speech when speaking, named eyes when seeing, names ears when hearing, names mind when thinking.

    All these are names of His Karma or creative self expression.

    He who mediates on any of these forms separately, as the Real, does not know him, as each of these manifestations is not complete.

    Therefore reality is to be mediated on as Atman for it is Atman all of thee become ONE.
    Sacred Brihadaranyakam 1 4 7
    (The Shruti warns the limitations of Knowing Casual Reality through the ordinary way of logical and analytical thought.)

    IMPO to attempt to ascertain what is beyond the realm of human perceptions on the basis of logic is a purposeless workout.
    Love

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Quote Originally Posted by brahman View Post


    All these are names of His Karma or creative self expression.

    He who mediates on any of these forms separately, as the Real, does not know him, as each of these manifestations is not complete.

    Therefore reality is to be mediated on as Atman for it is Atman all of thee become ONE.
    Sacred Brihadaranyakam 1 4 7
    (The Shruti warns the limitations of Knowing Casual Reality through the ordinary way of logical and analytical thought.)

    IMPO to attempt to ascertain what is beyond the realm of human perceptions on the basis of logic is a purposeless workout.
    Love
    Excellent post, Brahmanji
    The point from Brihadaranyakam can bring peace to a searching mind. IMPO so too can the logic in the commentary of the scriptures by the Archayas.

    So, at what point does it become a "puposeless workout", might be the next question?

    Sri Krishna confirms:

    To the enlightened person, who has realized the true nature of the Self within, the Vedas become as useful as a small reservoir of water when the water of a huge lake becomes available. (2.46) Bhagavad Gita

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onkara View Post
    Excellent post, Brahmanji
    The point from Brihadaranyakam can bring peace to a searching mind. IMPO so too can the logic in the commentary of the scriptures by the Archayas.



    Sri Krishna confirms:

    To the enlightened person, who has realized the true nature of the Self within, the Vedas become as useful as a small reservoir of water when the water of a huge lake becomes available. (2.46) Bhagavad Gita
    Dear Onkara,


    So, at what point does it become a "puposeless workout", might be the next question?


    Everything is a pointless exercise until one turns completely unto Oneself!


    Love


    Note: Please replace 'Mediate' with 'Meditate' in the previous posts. Thank you

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Pranam Devotte ji

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    The Brahman doesn't manifest only as Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva ... It is manifesting Himself even as Wtyler right now ! Is Wtyler a symbolic realty or a physical reality ?
    i am that reality that manifest in this form, if i were brahman i do not perceive that, brahman is sat chi ananad, i am not, Vishnu Shiva do not fall in to illusion i do, they control i don't, there is a difference

    These forms of God are as real as you are.
    forms off Gods are eternal, divya, our forms are temporary and perishable




    the Formless alone is the infinite forms around us and That alone which is Attributeless manifests Itself as full of infinite attributes ! So, relax. It is not such a big deal.

    OM
    formless by definition can not have any form, attributeless by definition has no attribute, you cant have your cake and eat it.

    Brahman by definition is neither this nor that, vak can not reach it therefor we struggle to understand it. i am part of that whole but i am not that whole, just as the sun and the rays are same and different.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Saidevo offers good insights regarding the form of the devas:

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo View Post
    namaste everyone.

    Just as a human soul--jIva, is expressed in three forms: physical, subtle (emotional/mental) and spiritual (Self), Devas have their three forms:

    • In their AdhyAtmika--spiritual, form, they are manifestations of Brahman and the administrators of the gross universe and the subtle worlds.

    • In their Adhidaivika--divine, form, they have a divya-sharIram--divine, gross body, in which form they reside in the devalokas--divine worlds.

    • In their Adhibautika--gross elemental, form, they are dissolved in the elements of the universe.

    KAnchi ParamAchArya in his lecture on Vedic sacrifices has this to say:
    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part5/chap19.htm

    "The devas, or celestials. While in this world they remain dissolved in the five elements, in the celestial world they exist in a visible form. Those who have obtained siddhi or perfection by chanting the mantras can also see them in their gross form in their celestial abode besides receiving their blessings in their subtle form. The gods emanated from the Paramatman as a result of the vibrations produced by the mantras. We may therefore describe the mantras as the 'sonic' form of the deities."

    *****

    As for other physical worlds with human-like residents, although Science says it is only a remote possibility, Hindu PurANas do speak of them as indicated by NayaSurya (post no.5).

    Theosophy speaks of globes and chains and lifestreams involving Devas, humans and planets. According to this knowledge system, there was a Moon Chain of life on the planet Moon which on its termination migrated to the Earth and started an Earth Chain of Life. In future, the Moon which is now a satellite of the Earth will disintegrate completely and Earth will become a sattlite to the globe where the next chain of life starts (possibly Mars).

    Check this book for further details:
    'The Solar System' by Arthur E. Powell,
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/16619974/A...e-Solar-System
    Last edited by Adhvagat; 09 July 2011 at 07:23 AM.

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    Re: Still having issues with Brahman.

    Namaste WTyler,
    So Brahman is the ultimate reality, and when it manifests it manifests as Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, Shakti and so forth. Am I correct so far?

    I just find issue that when Brahman manifests into different deities, why are they so different from one another? Do they have their own personalities?

    It also seems as if it's better understood symbolically. Shiva is the aspect of God that destroys, Vishnu--preserves, Brahma--creates. This symbolic understanding can make some to believe that the gods are symbolic rather than actual physical beings. So are they actual beings? If they are actual being--how is it possible to be so separate from Brahman but so equal?

    Am I separate from Brahman, too? But still equal ?
    In my understanding..
    Devotion - Bhakti Marg is one way to get Self Realization and Knowledge -jnana Marg is also there for Self Realization.

    Person who follows Bhakti marg, realizes Shree Vishna, Shiva, Brahma , Shakti, Maka Kali or any form of GOD. For Example, Sri Ramkrishna got realization through devotion to Maha Kali. Bhagwan Chaitanya realized Vasudev Shree Krishna. Sri Ramkrishna never wanted any type of knowledge but only love of Divine Mother.

    Person who follow Knowledge Path, has knowledge that GOD is formless only Brahman is there. For him Shree Vishna, Shiva , Brahma do not exist. For example, Swami Vivekanand got self realization throught knowing that only brahman exist, formless GOD.

    But, in bhakti marg, Devotee do get Knowledge of Brahnam after self realization.
    Namaskar,

    AmIHindu ?

    यज्ञानां जपयज्ञोऽस्मि ।

    नाम्नोऽस्ति यावती शक्तिः पापनिर्हरणे हरेः । श्र्वपचोऽपि नरः कतुँ क्षमस्तावन्नकिल्विषम् ।।

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