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Thread: Who is the "Doer"

  1. #1

    Who is the "Doer"

    Here again, my perennially inquisitive self.

    So, I keep reading in the Bhagavad Gita that I am not the doer of actions. If not, then who is the doer of actions in my place? Is it simply prakriti - the movement of the elements in the form of gunas -, is it Ishvara?

    If it is God who is doing everything, would this convict God of sin, or is He exempt from the laws of good and evil altogether, being as it were above them?

    Namaste, and happy to learn submissively!

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    So, I keep reading in the Bhagavad Gita that I am not the doer of actions. If not, then who is the doer of actions in my place? Is it simply prakriti - the movement of the elements in the form of gunas -, is it Ishvara?
    Prakriti is not Ishvara. It comes into being from Ishvara yet Ishvara is not part of Prakriti.

    If it is God who is doing everything, would this convict God of sin, or is He exempt from the laws of good and evil altogether, being as it were above them?
    God doesn't do anything that binds Him. He is the creator, sustainer and destroyer of this world but as he is un-attached .... He is not affected by this Karma. Everything in this phenomenal world is being done by Prakriti and the three gunas together. So, the doer is actually the Prakriti and the gunas but we accrue sins/merits due to our involvement/attachment :

    "Ahamkaar vimdoodhatmaa kartaaham iti manyate."

    Due to our attachment to ego, ignorantly, we take upon ourselves that "we" are the doer and therefore get entangled into the wiremesh of Karmas.

    This part of the Gita is not-Advaita and therefore, I think other Sr Members like GaneshPrasad ji will be able to explain this better.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    This confusion will remain till we have a clear understanding of the Brahman-Maya, Paraprakriti-aparaprakriti, purusha-prakriti, etc.

    If maya is there then brahman is there but the vice versa is not true.

    Part 1. : Brahman / Praprakriti / Purusha / consciousness (however we call) is the independent state which is permanent, attributeless, changeless, timeless.

    Part 2 : Whereas the other state maya / aparaprakriti / prakriti / matter (however we call) is the dependent state. It is not there without the other one. This is the state which is with attributes, changing form / state, etc. This form is attached with time, senses, action, thoughts, gunas, etc.

    All percieved state belongs to part 2. However this state cannot function without the higher state.

    Doing is a phenomenon by which one changes state. So it belongs to the part 2. However to carry out the actions it needs part 1 i.e. consciousness.

    Part 1 is the field, part 2 is the players. Part 1 is the light, part 2 is the object in the light. There are so many other examples.

    In both the above examples the field and the light do not play any role in the actions or results that happen. They only provide the enablement.

    This human body (body mind complex which also has the intellect) does karma and has karamaphal. But these would not be possible if the consciousness was not there. The consciousness or brahman or paraprakriti or purusha is only the enabler but the doer is the other part.

    The "I" belongs to the Part 1. However we mostly relate "I" to the body-mind complex and that is the Maya.

    Love and best wishes

  4. #4

    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    Namaste, and thanks all (thus far)!

    Oh, and by the way, I hope my wasn't received in bad taste. I just thought it an adorable icon. I hadn't any clue I was really sticking my tongue out at anybody.

  5. #5

    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    Namasté Kismet

    Think of a Boat at sea, just because you have one hand on the tiller, this does not mean that you are moving the boat.
    A good helmsman will anticipate the elements and navigate the boat accordingly.

    Om Shanti

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    dear kismet,

    My 2p.

    Who feels the feelings?

    Or lets put it this way, who faces the consequences of Karma? If You reap what you sow, then you are the doer.

    Thats why Purusha must learn to do away the feeling of doer ship.

    He does what he does under the delusion of identifying Himself with Pradhana, and faces up to His doings by reincarnations and reincarnations, till He learns himself to be different than Pradhana.

    That done, then He is not the doer any more.

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    The children play a game...it's pretend dress up. We have huge tubs of fantasy clothing and they dress up as a prince or a frog...or a dog...and then for hours this plays out a drama...a story about the frog and dog firefighter...or frog princess...depending on the day.

    But the hours grows long...and the clothes loose their lustre...and the players, long tired of the drama begin to admit they are not the dog, or the prince. They slowly begin to disrobe...

    Unfolding layer after layer of identity...removing these lables they took up to play...until nothing remain but them...the true one below.

    No longer wanting to participate they stop...they transform from doer to knower.

    Who is this Doer? Who is this knower?

    One in the same.

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    Pranam

    Lord Krishna informs us that there are 5 factors that impels us to action either good or bad, this all depends on our desires, our body is fashioned according to our desires and past karma, the body is made up of different elements as described;

    The five great elements, ego, intelligence, the unmanifested, the ten senses, the mind, the five sense objects, desire, hatred, happiness, distress, the aggregate, the life symptoms, and convictions--all these are considered, in summary, to be the field of activities and its interactions.Bg13.5/6

    in other words this vehicle is pre programed to function in certain way.

    therefore he further says in chapter 18 verse 13-15

    O mighty-armed Arjuna, learn from Me of the five factors which bring about the accomplishment of all action. These are declared in sankhya philosophy to be the place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately the Supersoul.

    why supersoul? because he knows our desires and what we deserve

    Whatever right or wrong action a man performs by body, mind or speech is caused by these five factors.

    Isvara do not partake in our actions he remains a witness

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganeshprasad View Post


    in other words this vehicle is pre programed to function in certain way.

    Dear GP,

    Are we sure about the highlighted part. If it is true then the question of Free will does not come or the birth as human to be able to alter the state of mind (karmaphal) will not arise.

    Can you please explain ?

    Love and best wishes

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    Re: Who is the "Doer"

    Pranam Kallol

    Quote Originally Posted by kallol View Post
    Dear GP,

    Are we sure about the highlighted part. If it is true then the question of Free will does not come or the birth as human to be able to alter the state of mind (karmaphal) will not arise.

    Can you please explain ?

    Love and best wishes

    there is no conflict of free will here although on the surface it sounds like it.
    let me try an example although no example would fully justify what one says.

    say you purchase a car, it comes with certain specification, so it would be reasonable for me to say that the car will function within it's limitation of spec, with us it is different, generally it functions within it's limitation but there is possibility to change the course, this would be done through extreme desire and hard work.

    see our present body is result of our past Karma and desires, so the limitation or pre program is not against free will, but it was our free will that shaped the present body.


    Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced.



    within the constraint of the body we in turn create new karma through new desires.this is Kriyamana karma, we are creating in the present, the fruits of which will be experienced in the future. In this way a suitable vehicle is provided it was our desires and karma that pre programs it.


    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

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