Who is the "Doer"

[Onkara]

Namast� Ganeshprasad
I enjoyed your answer to Kallol's question. If I may add my own perspective, please, for feedback or criticism.

Would you agree then that will or choice, can only operate now, right now in the present moment. It would only be free will, when the will is free from desire (or any of the Gunas). If the will is in any way influenced by existing karma or gunas it would risk adding more karma to our actions?

The difficulty then is that we all have predispositions, similar to a new car, so our decisions and will is always determined by them up until the point that we are no longer bound by the gunas. We go beyond the gunas, as Sri Krishna describes to Arjuna e.g. Bhagavad Gita 14.20.

So even now free will does not exist, as it is predispostioned, all action is due to the gunas.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Onkara
thank you

Namast� Ganeshprasad


Would you agree then that will or choice, can only operate now, right now in the present moment. It would only be free will, when the will is free from desire (or any of the Gunas). If the will is in any way influenced by existing karma or gunas it would risk adding more karma to our actions?

The difficulty then is that we all have predispositions, similar to a new car, so our decisions and will is always determined by them up until the point that we are no longer bound by the gunas. We go beyond the gunas, as Sri Krishna describes to Arjuna e.g. Bhagavad Gita 14.20.

So even now free will does not exist, as it is predispostioned, all action is due to the gunas.

I do not know if i fully understand your question but i will try to answer with what Krisna says,
Ghana Karmana Gati, he also says, we should do our duty and not worry about the result.

As to when the parabadh ful ripens and exhausted and new one begins one just can not tell. In all this i do not see the loss of free will, simply because prarabdh was a free will, being played out now and through desires out of free will, new fruits are created.

only when we choose to remain witness to our previous choices, the drama that is enacted in front of us, in both pleasure and pain to remain unaffected we can slowly, by extinguishing our desire and hate, we transcend the three gunas.

Jai Shree Krishna

[devotee]

Good explanation, Ganesh Prasad ji ! Thanks.

OM

[Onkara]

Pranam Onkara

Thank you for your reply, Ganeshprasad,

[Onkara]

Here again, my perennially inquisitive self.

So, I keep reading in the Bhagavad Gita that I am not the doer of actions. If not, then who is the doer of actions in my place? Is it simply prakriti - the movement of the elements in the form of gunas -, is it Ishvara?

If it is God who is doing everything, would this convict God of sin, or is He exempt from the laws of good and evil altogether, being as it were above them?

Namaste, and happy to learn submissively!

Namast�
As others have answered above, the Gunas, born of prakriti are the stimulant of our actions.

The Lord has no investment in our actions, be they good or evil. Because all actions occurs in the Lord, in His creation, He is still the Master. He can play a role and His role is always benign and pure goodness, but He doesn't need to interfere in samsara.

There is will, but will is always influenced by the gunas or/and our karma, so it is not free.

It is the sense of independence (Ahaṃkāra) due to the Lord's māyā that provides the sensation that all our actions are free. This is why the ignorant imagine "I am the doer" (BG 3.27) Some out of curiosity and some who arrive at the point where their "doing" causes more pain than pleasure, begin to look for the real "doer". Sri Krishna removes that doubt and explains it is the gunas (BG 3.27) for those who turn to Him.

The release is through surrender to the Lord, as one's true Self (Atman-Brahman). However once surrendered one can confirm that one was not the "doer", but once united with the Lord, the Lord's creation is a part of you and all that happens is happening as You. So there is still no free will even in jIvamoksha, but there is freedom through recognition that all that happens is happening because of you (Brahman).

It is precisely the clinging to the idea that there is free will which binds us to māyā.

Our will is never free, but whilst we think we are independent of the Lord, we accumulate the results of our action (karma) and are subject to the play of the gunas.

PS: I cannot see any other way around what I present, perhaps others can offer an alternative based on my post from their perception of scripture and understanding?

[Mana]

Namasté All

Very nice post Onkara, I agree with you wholly.

The more we rely on ego to allow us our prised free will, the tighter the knot of entanglement of Karma. The more violent the sea of samsara. We rise on Rajasic highs only to fall into Tamasic troughs never realising who or what is creating the storm there is no predictable rhythm to follow.

When we let go of the ego we centre ourselves within, learning to surrender our hearts who are themselves guided part by our wisdom and part by our gut feeling. Gut feeling its self is related to our actions and our speech.

If we have diminished needs and no desires we act only in response to the world about us which through diminished karmic response becomes calm. The sea of samsara becomes still as the winds of the gunas drop away.

Harmony is created between the world and ourselves as we become a part of the dance.

Dancing to the music of both Karma and the gunas.

Om Shanti

[Onkara]

Namasté All
(cut for space)

Harmony is created between the world and ourselves as we become a part of the dance.

Dancing to the music of both Karma and the gunas.

Om Shanti

Namasté Mana and all
Thank you.

If you don't mind I would like to elaborate a little further on something familiar to us, which you bring out in the analogy of the dance.

If we accept that surrender to the divine moves us from the gunas into unity with the divine. The next question is "if I am divine, then surely I am still the doer, for who can stop the divine from action?" This question arises because God is most certainly the creator (dancer) and if God and creation (the dance) are one, then despite the gunas acting, the gunas are still divine. We enter a new dilemma, in which if we accept that we are divine, as are the gunas, then we are still "the doer".

The vedantins maintain that as Brahman we are passive Consciousness (sat-chit-ananda) and all action is through the Lord's power of maya. I don't dispute this and for many this is satisfactory enough to rest within the divine being.

Personally I struggled with this conclusion and looked again. A respected member of this forum gracefully introduced me to the teaching of the Trika System and with it my questions were answered, here is a brief summary in my own words:

There is indeed no difference between the Creator and Creation. Between the divine and His powers, these are conceptually understood as Shiva-Shaki, two concepts for the One divine being.

The power to create, is the nature of the divine. The divine by its very own nature expands. The expansion that runs through all nature is Shakti.

So through us the expansion expands. The divine is acting through us, as us. The choice of words here, leads to a duality "through + us". Really there is no "us" as all is divine, we can come to know that through surrender and grace etc. So once this is accepted we can accept that expansion and our doing is in fact divine. There is a difference between the doing of those who still feel separated from the divine, in that they are still propelled by the gunas and the results of their mind i.e. desire, fear, lust, seeking of happiness etc and the karma that follows their actions.

As we have agreed above for those who surrendered to the divine and unite with the divine, "doing" is no longer done for the individual but they witness the unfoldment of their divine, one, non-dual being as divine Consciousness (Shiva). This, oddly enough, is the same goal and outcome as before, but the purpose of action has been answered again.

Any expansion, helpful criticism or improvement to this is welcome from any one.

[NayaSurya]

I love love love your wonderful explanation of Trika<3

But let me take a moment to say...that I do believe in free will of a sort.

I don't think Beloved can experience surprise or fear without some level of hands off to our actions. To fully know surprise it would take a level of removed-ness to our actions here to provide this...

Also, because of such high level confused beings here we have things happen which appear out of Beloved's control because of this hands off approach. Such as the situations like mass murders where a shift in the balance happen. Ultimately, yes everything is done with permission of the One...there is no other.

But as I tell my children...."yes make a sandwhich" and they go into kitchen and bring back a sandwhich of Captain Crunch cereal instead of cheese...well this would be a surprise and a bit of free will involved.

Yes, if Beloved wanted to have His Beloved Hand upon every action, I am sure this would be so...but as I see it...

That would not bring the things which He came here to do in the first place. Experience...sharing.

If one is of the belief that Beloved created all of This for His own ability to share and experience. Then I think it wouldn't be hard to understand the necessity for some free will here in this realm. Yes, ultimately we are all Beloved, all moving upon His Divine Layers...so you could say He knows because We Know. But, it seems a bit more complicated than this as I know if experiences and sharing are our true reasons...then the blindfold is truly necessary.

There comes a time, as in my story...when with enough Knowledge and Truth that these Portions become aware of this movement around us and its purpose. Those costumes were symbols for our experiences here...our expectations and desires...taking them off and accepting that the doer is just a part of the Drama give Beloved an indication.

Mantra, song....japa...service to other Portions...removing ourselves from the action and simply observing...working through our karma till it is sufficiently burned up so that we are free to work out all of this above you speak of....all of these things tell Beloved we are not wanting to participate any longer.

What good are we then to this Divine Drama if We have become still?

Then as a fruit ripe on the tree, He come pluck us off and take us Home<3

[kallol]

Pranam Kallol




there is no conflict of free will here although on the surface it sounds like it.
let me try an example although no example would fully justify what one says.

say you purchase a car, it comes with certain specification, so it would be reasonable for me to say that the car will function within it's limitation of spec, with us it is different, generally it functions within it's limitation but there is possibility to change the course, this would be done through extreme desire and hard work.

see our present body is result of our past Karma and desires, so the limitation or pre program is not against free will, but it was our free will that shaped the present body.


Prarabdha is that portion of the past karma which is responsible for the present body. It is ripe for reaping. It cannot be avoided or changed. It is only exhausted by being experienced.



within the constraint of the body we in turn create new karma through new desires.this is Kriyamana karma, we are creating in the present, the fruits of which will be experienced in the future. In this way a suitable vehicle is provided it was our desires and karma that pre programs it.


Jai Shree Krishna

Thanks for the explanation GP.

It is clear now

Love and best wishes

[kallol]

My understanding :

The karmaphal out of Karma as a duty and karma out of attachment are different.

So karma by itself does not increase the rajas part untill the attachment is there.

The emotional fluctuations out of ego, desire, etc is responsible for altering the state of mind. This happens when we attach ourselves with the karmas.

The knowledgeable ones keep their minds steady while perfoming any karma - be it war.

Arjun fought the war as a duty towards dharma. Rama fought the war again as a duty towards dharma.

If any action or karma is based on desirelessness then the fluctuations in the mind is minimal.

These states are often acheived through living the right knowledge.

Love and best wishes