Who is the "Doer"

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam all

There are as many questions as there answers, depending from what angle one approaches we would find a small variation.

one thing for sure i have no doubt in my mind that the free will is essential ingredient for karma to take shape. i say this because Lord Shree Krishna says it. His words are infallible for those who believe in him.

Thus the knowledge that is more secret than the secret has been explained to you by Me. After fully reflecting on this, do as you wish . (18.63)
iti te jnanam akhyatam
guhyad guhyataram maya
vimrsyaitad asesena
yathecchasi tatha kuru

Jai Shree Krishna

[Kismet]

Some great points all around guys. Just one thing about free will that may be of value.

There are some philosophers who believe free will and determinism are compatible (compatbilists). In this sense we are basically "fated" to do what we will. However, this does not negate free will because the decision itself to carry out actions remains ours. As long as we are self-possessed and know, for instance, that "this is what I want" regardless of the chemical or physical factors spurring us on, we can in that sense be said to be free, since it is our desire, our volition...

I personally do not agree entirely with this view, but I believe, in contradiction to a lot of others, that it does indeed have merit.

[Mana]

Just to bring in another slant to this fascinating discussion, I feel this to be very relevant.

Here is a mathematical representation of the same conundrum.

One could be led to believe that the fern is drawn by chance yet it reappears every time. Who or what draws the fern? Is it the deterministic laws or the non-determined random "choices" of the flip of a coin?







Could it be that there is a fractal boundary between the two states determined and nondetermined, that we are on it?


Om Shanti

[kallol]

Clarity of thoughts is related to the ability to stop at the optimal point of the analysis. Over analysing may lead to confusion again. It is like reaching the peak and then moving down.

This ability to judge the point of clarity and stop there determines, the clarity of knowledge one is carrying or living.

This is true for all aspects of life and is also true for this subject also.

This clarity is also visible to the lesser knowledgeable people who are part of the discussion. If overdone, the lesser knowledgeable ones get confused again.

As the discussion continues, the mind runs amok, the analysis takes color, the distinct boundary becomes fuzzy and hazy.

We have already brought out many points of references and we are trying to define freewill wrt to the references. This might bring in confusion in many who are following the discussion.

I would rather leave at "Human has freewill to contribute considerably towards their future state"

Love and best wishes

[Onkara]

Namasté friends
I can see how this can become confusing. One issue with this is that we cannot contribute more than snippets of information, often this is not as complete as scripture (a book) and cannot address an individual's doubts as a Guru might.

I hope my last posts didn't add to the confusion and I would be happy to address any doubts.

My position remains that it is precisely the clinging to the idea that there is free will which binds us to māyā. There is will (Svātantrya), but it is never free at the empirical level of body-mind.

Will is never free as it is always preconditioned by the gunas and karma, as per the Bhagavad Gita, the doer is the gunas, no matter how difficult that is to accept. Hear the Lord:

No one for even a moment
Exists without doing action;
Each is forced to perform action–
Even against his will–by gunas. 3.5

All actions, in all instances,
Are done by Prakriti’s gunas;
Those with ego-deluded mind
Imagine: “I am the doer.” 3.27

And yet, the man who knows the truth
About the gunas’ actions thinks:
“The gunas act in the gunas,”
And thinking thus is not attached. 3.28

Those deluded by the gunas
Of prakriti become attached
To their actions. Let not the wise
Upset these of partial knowledge. 3.29

There is no entity on earth,
Or in heaven among the gods,
Found devoid of these three gunas,
Born of Prakriti, Arjuna. 17.40

The Holy Lord said:
I am, indeed, mighty world-destroying Time,
Here made manifest for destroying the world.
Even without you, none of the warriors here
Arrayed within the hostile armies shall live. 11.32
- Bhagavad Gita.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Not wishing to repeat my self, i just add one thing to above, Guna the asta prakriti this body is made off is Jada, material, just like a car without a driver it is useless.

Jai Shree Krishna

[Onkara]

Pranam

Not wishing to repeat my self, i just add one thing to above, Guna the asta prakriti this body is made off is Jada, material, just like a car without a driver it is useless.

Jai Shree Krishna

I agree with you, respected Ganeshprasad
The ultimate "driver" in your analogy is the Atman, and for the non-dualists Atman is verily Brahman. Once the aspirant knows their Self as Atman-Brahman and prakriti as Brahman, then the question as to "who is the doer" has been resolved, does anyone disagree?

[NayaSurya]

No one for even a moment
Exists without doing action;
Each is forced to perform action–
Even against his will–by gunas. 3.5

The Holy Lord said:
I am, indeed, mighty world-destroying Time,
Here made manifest for destroying the world.
Even without you, none of the warriors here
Arrayed within the hostile armies shall live. 11.32
- Bhagavad Gita.

Yes, we have to act. But this last phrase..."we all are bound to act...even against our own will" ...(which would be perhaps to "not to act").

This does not mean we do not choose which actions...it means we will act and we are bound to act.

So perhaps we sometimes do choose...even if it would be in accordance to our karma this lifetime. So not so "free" as we would seem...but to choose the big black gun or the small silver to shoot ten people in a mall? It's a small choice...but one none the less. To have 8 children or six.....or 10? Large number, one more or one less makes not much difference in our larger picture.

We have to act...and it will be aligned with our gunas. But this is a vastly great amount of spice to be added to this Drama...a lot of wiggle room to act within these larger facets of our incarnation within these vessels.

As Arjuna chose...to act and do our duty...or to not act? If Arjuna had not acted that day...Krishna would have stopped the lesson and found another way to teach us this Truth, I believe this is what Beloved meant when He said this.

"Arjuna...do your duty...either you or I...will do this...it will be done."



Then I find one of these phrases such a Jewel amongst Jewels...a direct Truth for all of us dealing with our families and what to say about SD.

Those deluded by the gunas
Of prakriti become attached
To their actions. Let not the wise
Upset these of partial knowledge. 3.29

Beloved giving us the Truth...about ones still new upon the path. Do not come and disturb their simple joy of Being within this Drama.

This should set anyone at ease who is often, still not telling other Portions just exactly what you have discovered if they are not ready.

[NayaSurya]

I agree with you, respected Ganeshprasad
The ultimate "driver" in your analogy is the Atman, and for the non-dualists Atman is verily Brahman. Once the aspirant knows their Self as Atman-Brahman and prakriti as Brahman, then the question as to "who is the doer" has been resolved, does anyone disagree?

Agree<3

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Onkara

I agree with you, respected Ganeshprasad
The ultimate "driver" in your analogy is the Atman, and for the non-dualists Atman is verily Brahman. Once the aspirant knows their Self as Atman-Brahman and prakriti as Brahman, then the question as to "who is the doer" has been resolved, does anyone disagree?

Yes it would be true for a non dualist to conclude so but for a dualist it would be different. using the same analogy of a car, the maker and the drivers are not necessary to be the same.

Ishvara is Gunaatit beyond the sway of Guna, so question does not arise as for his doer ship or weather he has free will or not

Jai Shree Krishan