Capitalism & ignorance

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

The following are some ideas I have been pondering for a while. It is not a critique or political statement
on what system is better or worse, but observations I have entertained and lived in.

By observation it is my opinion that Capitalism works well and is fueled by the fundamental principle of malam ajñāna . That is, the blemish (mala) of ignorance ( ajñāna ).

Capitalism suggests the individual reaps the benefits of his/her actions. That one's own effort is rewarded.
Others are viewed in a like manner - 'you have the same opportunities as me to move ahead, so take
advantage of it, do not depend on me, you are your own captain'.

It is this ignorance of viewing oneself as completely individual , not connected to the whole that capitalism has been successful. Even when help is given to others it is still of the notion of self-interest. I am helping you so
you are not a burden on me or the community that in the end effects my productivity, my happiness,
or my forward motion. It is my opinion that capitalism is the right system for a society that is predicated on
malam ajñāna.

If forms of socialism are introduced there is push back... the logic is, 'if I work for my progress and livelihood so should you -
there are no free-loaders'. It makes little sense to offer a robust system of socialism to a society that sees themselves as a collection of unique individuals.

This ( IMHO) is why Communism fails again and again. People are still of the orentiation of one-off individuals.
The greater good are words and is not a direct personal experience.

Perhaps you have an idea or two regarding this matter?

What of a society of the enlighted? What system would be adapted and work well ? I have a few thoughts
and will offer them in the next post.

praṇām

[Friend from the West]

Namast� to all,
Yajvan, my only regret is I have to get off HDF here in about 10 minutes and get on for only about five a little later. I am very much looking forward to your next post. What an interesting thread.

[NayaSurya]

As a child I was only given staunch republican view of this world. I was in this box of my birth...the box filled with things which my parents uttered and I took for truth.

But, dwelling here amongst the masses of peoples all gathered from every sundry location of the world...a port of call for military and their families...

I experienced righteousness which I could not deny within these peoples so impoverished. My box began to shatter from this exposure and I began to feel with all my heart to do only good together.

My views became as a mother, very socialist inclined...to share this food, this warmth with every living being<3 I want to give everything to this realm until nothing remains left of me but perhaps this Love.<3

These children, the prayers to this world, full of Love and they will go out and will continue this legacy of Love in whatever way they can.

I do think society and the country mature slowly into higher ideals. But, when harsh economic times come...they often revert back to the primitive ways...just as one could get trampled at a sporting event...it happens when times get difficult.

But, this should be when we become our best...it is an opportunity to show Beloved we understand.

I think a hybrid mix of these structures you listed above would be very goodly...in harsh times and good. Commerce and free markets plus a caring infrastructure to help all achieve safety, security and prosperity...and of course...spirituality<3.

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: I love the social democracy I live in. There is much I see wrong with capitalism. The destruction of the planet in the name of gain is a starter.

On the other hand, communism, in its truest sense, has always gotten a bad rap. Many do not even know what it means. I recall my conversation in Grade 7 with my cousin. We had both been programmed by parents.

Him: Communism is bad.
Me: Tell me one thing about communism.
Him: It's bad.
Me: Can you name one communist leader?
Him: You can love it all you want, but I never will because its bad.

It was a valuable lesson for me, realising that simplistic thinkers existed. A veritable eye-opener.

Now I see things far more balanced, without the programming. Some mix, some middle path works best for me. The group helps the individual, and the individual helps the group.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;

On the other hand, communism, in its truest sense, has always gotten a bad rap.

From a Capitalistic POV we can see why Communism is not an attractive approach ( again, a word of caution I am not taking sides ):

Carl Marx's ( along Friedrich Engels) manifesto outlines the following:

• The redistribution of land
• Equalizing wealth through a heavy progressive or graduated income tax
• Abolishing all rights of inheritance
• Confiscating property from emigrants and rebels
• Factories and instruments of production should be owned by the State
• All credit should be in State banks
• All people are equally obliged to work
• All children should receive free education in public schools

The key points on what are attractive: the equalization of wealth, land, resources. Yet to a society that is driven by individual attainment and self-sufficiency these ideas are antagonistic.

praṇām

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste Yajvanji,

You raise some good points. I identify as a democratic socialist. I am against both capitalism and communism, and I see democratic socialism as a sort of middle ground between the two. I don't think a truly communist society is possible, at least in the foreseeable future, and there has never been one on a large scale. I believe capitalism, especially completely unrestrained capitalism, leads to widespread inequality and poverty, due to what many call human nature.

What of a society of the enlighted? What system would be adapted and work well ? I have a few thoughts
and will offer them in the next post.

This is interesting, and something I have been thinking about. Perhaps a completely dharmic society, comprised by a vast majority of people who adhere to dharma, would be able to transcend what many call human nature. That is, feelings of selfishness and only looking after the individual self-interest at the cost of others.

It would be interesting to see the type of economic system that Indian societies had in the previous yugas, in the times of yore when dharma and the values of Sanatana Dharma resonated throughout all of society.

Jai Sri Ram

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste Yajvanji,

Just an expansion on my previous post.

Capitalism suggests the individual reaps the benefits of his/her actions. That one's own effort is rewarded.
Others are viewed in a like manner - 'you have the same opportunities as me to move ahead, so take
advantage of it, do not depend on me, you are your own captain'.

It is this ignorance of viewing oneself as completely individual , not connected to the whole that capitalism has been successful. Even when help is given to others it is still of the notion of self-interest. I am helping you so
you are not a burden on me or the community that in the end effects my productivity, my happiness,
or my forward motion. It is my opinion that capitalism is the right system for a society that is predicated on
malam aj&#241;āna.

The problem in capitalistic societies is that eventually not everyone has the same opportunity. Many people end up taking advantage of the capitalist system, become rich, and then do their best to become even richer while making sure that others don't have the same opportunities that they have. At least this has been the case in the country I live in, the United States.

So I don't believe that others are viewed in a like manner. If anything, the capitalistic system would increase ignorance by leading people to become rich and wealthy, which in turn leads many to become egoistical and selfish and obsessed with money and materialism. Of course there are many great wealthy philanthropists, such as Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and many others. But for every one of them there are just as many egoistical and selfish people who become wealthy and don't help other people and try to make sure that others cannot become successful like they have.

Ideally, I wouldn't be against capitalism or a system similar to it. But due to "human nature" as many people call it, I don't think it is right. As I said before, perhaps an "enlightened" society that adheres to dharma and true morality would be able to transcend these tendencies of selfishness and egoism. But there is no society like that in this Kali Yuga, and therefore I believe it's necessary to have lots of restraints and regulations on capitalism as well as extensive government welfare services. I am interested in seeing what you have to say in your next post.

Jai Sri Ram

[Eastern Mind]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�


From a Capitalistic POV we can see why Communism is not an attractive approach ( again, a word of caution I am not taking sides ):

Carl Marx's ( along Friedrich Engels) manifesto outlines the following:

� The redistribution of land
� Equalizing wealth through a heavy progressive or graduated income tax
� Abolishing all rights of inheritance
� Confiscating property from emigrants and rebels
� Factories and instruments of production should be owned by the State
� All credit should be in State banks
� All people are equally obliged to work
� All children should receive free education in public schools

The key points on what are attractive: the equalization of wealth, land, resources. Yet to a society that is driven by individual attainment and self-sufficiency these ideas are antagonistic.

praṇām

Vannakkam Yajvan: Yes, I understand this. What I meant by bad rap is the stuff that came out of US propaganda during the Cold War. This was the simplified version I related earlier in the discussion with my cousin. But a well thought out critique such as you present here isn't objectionable.

The black white Abrahamic philosophy ruled the day "It's all bad", when in fact communism presents some excellent ideas. After all the root word is the same as community, and no one objects to that word.

My personal biggest problem with communism is the abolishment of religion, and the idea that it has to be done by force. My biggest problem with capitalism is the unfair distribution of wealth which creates a sustained class structure where movement up is nigh impossible unless you're an athlete or an actor.

My personal ideal political society would be where distribution of wealth happened because of a spiritualising of the wealthy, and kindness and giving became the order of the day. But at this point in the planet's evolution, the Kali yuga, anava and maya are everywhere.

Aum Namasivaya

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Here is the classic anti-capitalism poster:
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=h...QEwAw&dur=2195

But as I said before, I don't totally support either extreme system. I totally agree with Ramakrishna's post above.

Aum Namasivaya

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast&#233;

This is interesting, and something I have been thinking about. Perhaps a completely dharmic society, comprised by a vast majority of people who adhere to dharma, would be able to transcend what many call human nature. That is, feelings of selfishness and only looking after the individual self-interest at the cost of others.

Good opinions and observations have been offered above...

I think when a dharmic society unfolds many things will change as one would expect. The one that is top of mind is that of laws and the amount of them. Within an enlightened society people become untethered,
and are no longer considered paśu&#185;.

Today there are thousands of laws that are on the books. Why is that? because people (in ignorance) do not know how to act without guidance. Within a enlightened society people will be aligned to Universal laws. People begin to spontaneously act according to the laws of nature, laws of the cosmos. Education of this knowledge, of proper action will be most fruitful. Laws will not be about what you cannot do, but what is possible to accomplish in harmony with the world.

Since the society as a whole would be in-line with Universal principles - the rains will come on time, harvests will be full, a balance in nature with humans and with the Divine unfolds. That influences commerce and how things are traded, sold, given and offered. What occurs? balance returns to the system... the right things at the right time.

Above all my teacher talked of nations being invincible . So invincible that no troubles come their way because enemies are not made. That suggests the $ billions that are spent on the military can be re-directed for the upliftment of the family of man.

Yet what would trade look like ? What occurs, what is commerce?

praṇām


words

paśu पशु - any tethered animal ; with māheśvara-s and pāśupata-s the individual soul as distinct from the divine Soul of the universe