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Thread: Capitalism & ignorance

  1. #11
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    I consider myself libertarian and hence will point out certain fundamental contradictions/problems with communism/Communism/Marxism.

    First, I would like to draw a distinction between communism (the theory) and Communism (the political means of implementing communism).

    (a)communism sounds great. But nearly inevitably a society that is founded on this principle degenerates into Communism (command economy, politburo politics, etc.)
    (b)Communism, as that developed in Soviet Russia was ANYTHING but equal. Although equality was what was pushed to the masses, the elite in the Communist scheme of things (politburo, scientists, etc.) got to enjoy a quality of life that the proletariat werent even aware of. Examples include the many dachas in remote parts of Soviet Union were the elites regularly retreated and spent time.
    (c)Another problem with Communism is that it leads to gerontocracy within the party structure. For this, you can look at the leaders of Communist parties in India.
    (d)When the State sets the prices of commodities it inevitably leads to distortion because the government is lousy at setting prices. A free market with as few information assymetries as possible leads to quickest price discovery. During the oil embargo of the 70s, the US ended up with price controls on gas at the gas stations. This led to (and will always inevitably lead to) rationing, huge waiting times to get a refill and general decrease in quality of life. The prices in an economy are best set by buyers and sellers with as few middlemen between them as possible.
    (e)Geopolitically, I notice that Communism comes a complete cropper against radical Islam. For instance, the hatred that Communists exhibit towards Israel is probably even greater than the hatred that Muslims exhibit towards Israel! Communists ought to believe that ALL religion is the opiate of the masses, but many of them (Naom Chomsky, etc.) are open supporters of Palestine and anti-Israel. Communists ought to be against theocratic states of all kind yet their unique hatred of Israel is indeed one of a kind.
    (f)Animal Farm is an old film but it is spot on on its portrayal of Communism.
    Last edited by wundermonk; 18 July 2011 at 02:06 PM.

  2. #12
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    namaste yajvan HDF members,
    No pressure yajvan, I cannot wait (if I sound like a school child so be it) for your thoughts on last two questions or any other's thoughts.
    Rich

  3. #13

    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    Namasté All

    We can talk all that we wish about Capitalism and Communism, until we realise that it is our selves we have to change nothing will move.

    To my mind, we need to think very hard about the way we educate and for what reasons.

    For example can anyone here explain the Dharma of the system we call "Money"? We are taught nothing of Money and then are expected to pass our entire lives in the pursuit of it.

    Until we are educated as to what it is and how it works we will never have a balanced system.

    Money in its current form is an extremely powerful form of mAyA which by its very nature is designed to stimulate Rajas action and store it. Until there is monetary reform we will not have peace as money in its current form creates imbalance by its very nature.

    Why should we abandon totally a tool which can serve us well?

    Nothing is stopping us from removing its power, changing it to a Sattva state. Currently intrinsically Rajas it is creating an all consuming inflation.

    Who will teach these economists of the Dharma that has led to the ecolution of there very own language to reinforce there delusion?

    This tool must be yoked or it no longer serves us, it has grown to become our master. Worshipped by millions who are completely blind to mAyA or worse addicted to her subtitle Power oblivious to those who truly wield it.

    Here is a vid of two seers discussing this.

    We could try to live in a commune which uses capital to stabilise the elements?

    Here is an interesting video. An artists impression of an extremely interesting speech on education.

    It is some what more relevant to the West, however I do believe that we can all learn from this our disastrous example, the adharma is so apparent for those who chose to see it.


    Peace

    Mana

  4. #14
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    The term capitalism is not a good one so I will use the term free market. The free market is simply voluntary interactions between people based on needs and wants. What we have now in America is NOT capitalism, we currently have a system which only exists because of the coercion of the state.

    "There is much I see wrong with capitalism. The destruction of the planet in the name of gain is a starter."

    The market is the number 1 driver of advances in technology, while the government is the number 1 enabler of corporations that Emmit CO2.

    "On the other hand, communism, in its truest sense, has always gotten a bad rap."

    Communism is the belief that you are not entitled to the fruits of your labor and that it belongs to the state / everyone. There has NEVER once been a collectivist society which hasn't gone into mass starvation or failed completely.

    "If anything, the capitalistic system would increase ignorance by leading people to become rich and wealthy, which in turn leads many to become egoistical and selfish and obsessed with money and materialism. "

    Do you think a changing of the economic conditions would change human nature? No, it wouldn't, but what we have now in America and abroad is a bastardization of the free market where there are literally thousands upon thousands of regulations that stifle economic, technological, and societal growth. Do you think pointing guns at people will solve complex social problems? I will assume you say no. Well, that's what the state does everyday, it points guns at people, demands money and obedience, via taxation and laws, and if they don't obey they either get shot or spend time in jail.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOBD6...el_video_title

  5. #15
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    There are some very good discussions that are occurring on this thread. The key here is ignorance vs. enlightenment. Different systems have their pluses and minuses, I think we all agree - yet at the end of the day we get what we deserve.

    This is a very hard thing to swallow , yet we as a society have a collective consciousness that is a great influence on the quality of life. The collective consciousness works at the family level, community level , national level and global level. It is what goes on in aggregate that becomes the ~collection~ no? If people are in strife, unhappy, stressed, rago-guna driven individually, what then can we expect at the collective level ? The same.

    So where does change come from? It must start at the individual level. Balance, sattva, unfoldment of the Divine, upliftment of higher values must start with the individual, then the family, community, the nation. Like that change occurs. Yet many think the way to change is to protest, demand, revolt, push back, etc. These are the tools of ignorance. The tools of knowledge is to change the quality of the person, of society , from the inside out.

    Where must this start? The mahābhārata suggests it is the duty at the leadership level ( katria&#185 to create this orderly society. It seems we must put these people in the leadership positions that have enlightened vision. Yet is this occurring? I do not see it. Why so ? We are not ~growing~ these types of people in our society, in our communities in our educational system in mass to make this occur.
    Yet here is the pickle. When society is steeped in ignorance how will these people know there is a purely better way to lead and live ? It becomes the duty of those that are enlightened to bring a better vision and uplift the individual the best they can.

    praṇām





    words
    katria - governing , endowed with sovereignty
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  6. #16
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    Communism is the belief that you are not entitled to the fruits of your labor and that it belongs to the state / everyone.
    Vannakkam: I once read a very detailed case study of a village in China during the years and days prior to and including the Maoist revolution.

    The motto that was repeated over and over an over was "Who should benefit from the fruits of our labour?" Now of course they weren't trying to overthrow capitalism at the time, but just wanted a life beyond the Emperor's control. The rich poor divide at the time was worse than 1% owned 99% while the other 99% owned 1%. We have no death statistics for this time, nor do we for feudalism, but one can only imagine.

    At the rate of change in US version capitalism, it will still be awhile before the rich - poor gap gets that wide, but unless something stops that train, that is where we are headed.

    Please don't get me wrong. I don't like communism any better than capitalism.

    The solution lies in SD, where souls change, one at a time. Economically, it is somewhere in the middle.

    In the meantime, we need to study the role of propaganda on both sides. We are all victims of it.

    Aum Namasivaya

  7. #17
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    In the age of ignorance we are ~things based~ - objects of achievement to be gained . It doesn't matter if its capitalism or communism - the primary interest is material gain, and how things are divided up for one's consumption; spiritual development is secondary. In capitalism the citizen has now become the ~consumer~.

    In an Enlightened time, spiritual development is primary and the pursuit of material gains is secondary. It is not that material gain is not valued, but it does not have the strangle-hold on the individual . One is not measured by the amount of material goods one has amassed.

    In ignorance the world is seen as fractured, in parts, limited and material attainment reins supreme. The individual is at the core. In an enlightened time it is consciousness and knowledge that rein supreme. The wholeness of society reins and is of key import. But way so? One views the world as an extension of their own Self. There is no-thing that is not a part of my Being.

    Just this one principle , this reality that the world is an extension of my own Self changes all the values of the society. How others are treated ( including all of nature), how commerce is performed ( the highest level of fairness) , how nations view nations ( respectful & with no fear).

    What to say of sadācāra ? That of virtuous conduct , good manners , well conducted. People would rejoice in the understanding of who owns what: He who 'owns' all is īśāvara; of what part can we say we own, until we associate completely with the Divine?

    praṇām
    Last edited by yajvan; 19 July 2011 at 09:48 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

  8. #18

    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    Namaste TheOne,

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post

    Do you think a changing of the economic conditions would change human nature?
    No, I don't think so and I never said that. Capitalism preys on human nature, employing a dog eat dog approach, leading to a select number of people becoming rich and powerful at the cost of others. Socialism does the opposite, not by changing human nature, but by offsetting the effects of it.

    When I refer to democratic socialism, it is a rather "mild" form of Marxism, such as what we see in social democratic countries today like Sweden, Finland, and even Canada. They do not strive for some "utopian" classless society like communism would envision, but rather a common sense middle ground between a completely free-market capitalist state and a communist state.

    The whole rationale behind capitalism is doing whatever it takes at whatever cost to people, the environment, etc. to make a profit. Socialism puts people above profit.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOne View Post
    Do you think pointing guns at people will solve complex social problems? I will assume you say no. Well, that's what the state does everyday, it points guns at people, demands money and obedience, via taxation and laws, and if they don't obey they either get shot or spend time in jail.
    What are you talking about?

    Jai Sri Ram
    Sanatana Dharma ki Jai!
    Jai Hanuman

  9. #19
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    > Socialism does the opposite, not by changing human nature, but by offsetting the effects of it.

    No it doesn't, in every country it has either
    a) Reduced the quality of life beyond measure
    b) Taxed the hell out of its people which inhibits innovation and growth(both technologically and socially)

    >
    The whole rationale behind capitalism is doing whatever it takes at whatever cost to people, the environment, etc. to make a profit. Socialism puts people above profit.

    You define Capitalism as people exploiting other people and the environment. The free market is based on the idea of voluntary interactions between people for mutual benefit. Neither you, nor anyone else has provided a rational argument for capitalism "failure".

    >What are you talking about?
    Let's take this in baby steps using a moral argument.

    Step #1 : Treated others as you would like to be treated. This is the basic moral law which is solid in every respect and can be used to solve the simplest moral problem and the most complex one.

    Step #2 : Stealing is wrong. Stealing is morally wrong because it is the forceful extraction of something or another from another person. This also builds off of step 1. You shouldn't steal because think of how you would feel if the same was done to you.

    Step #3 : Organizations like the Mafia are inherently evil, because they rely on operations based on coercion of others. Whether it is going to another neighborhood and killing then, or whether it is requiring people to either pay protection money or end up dead, it is based on a moral wrong. The Mafia is innately evil because of its reliance on coercion to achieve its goals.

    Step #4: The State is essentially an immoral institution. The reason for this is because it relies on coercion via taxation to provide funds for its activities. Now you may say that we can choose to pay taxes or not, but that is a false choice because if we don't we are hunted down and put into jail for a very, very long time.


    Step #5: Now that we realize that the state is an institution based on the initiation of force to achieve its goals the ONLY morally upright goal regarding it, is the elimination of it.


    I have a hundred logical rational proofs for the free market and what you would call "Anarchy", below is just one video describing the fallacies attributed to the free market.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAnXK...el_video_title

  10. #20
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    Re: Capitalism & ignorance

    This is getting ridiculous. Neither Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, or any other modern Western economic ideology is 100% compatible with Dharma, which is why most sensible people, (including pro-Hindu groups in India like the BJP) recognize that a completely different solution is necessary. Read this: http://www.bjp.org/index.php?option=...134&Itemid=442

    Arguing about whether Capitalism or Communism is better, from a Hindu standpoint...is like arguing about whether hamburgers or cheeseburgers are more compatible with Dharma.

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