Capitalism & ignorance

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

I mentioned the following,

In the age of ignorance we are ~things based~ - objects of achievement to be gained .

The upaniṣad-s deal with the notion of ignorance (avidya&#185 and use different ways of describing this condition. Moha is one name as it suggests a level of delusion of what is real and unreal. The deluted ones are known as mūḍha-s मूढ perplexed or confused.

The īśāvā upaniṣad¹ suggests the a mūḍha is one that is ātmahantā¹ or ātmahanuka - the one that kills the Self. In the kaṭhopaniṣad this condition of ignorace is liked to a child - bāla.

Now why do the wise choose this word - bāla ? Could it be due to the notion of immaturity? Pehaps not fully-grown or developed? The kaṭhopaniṣad suggests the notion of bāla is one that goes after external pleasures. That is, like a child they are enamored with external objects of color,size, shapes, noise.
The object feeds the mind and entertains it. But yet the senses are easiy coaxed from object to object with the notion that the next 'thing' will bring more pleasure or enjoyment then the last, just a the child goes from toy-to-toy.

Now enter the wisdom found in the chāndogya upaniṣad¹, where sanatkumāra-ji is instructing nārada-ji and says, nālpe sukham asti or finite (alpa) things do not (na) contain happiness (suka). What then becomes of the framework of capitalism or communism ( or any system) when all the things amassed do not advance one's happiness?

This is my point. No bombs or riots are needed other then the realization of the truth for a shift in society to occur. One needs to experience a higher level of Being, of Consciousness and find that it is home... that all the possessions are not contributing to one's essential betterment, to one's happiness.

praṇām

words

• avidya - unlearned, unwise of the Truth
• ātmahantā is ātma +hantā
  • ātma or ātman is the essence of the individual , the Self +
  • hantā is hana or killing
• īśāvā upaniṣad - 3rd śloka.
• bāla - young , childish , infantine , not full-grown or developed
• bālā - as an fyi is a young female child
• nālpe sukham asti
  
  • nālpe = na or 'no'
  • alpa = trifiling. small , minute
  • sukham is sukha - happy, prosperous
  • asti = set aside , given up , cease , vanish , perish
• Chāndogya Upaniṣad - Chapter 7.23.1

[Mana]

Namasté yajvan.

May I ask you to expand a little on Moha and mAyA. Are they self similar or is there a large distinction between the two words?

Thank you kindly.

Pranam

Mana

[TheOne]

>Arguing about whether Capitalism or Communism is better, from a Hindu standpoint...is like arguing about whether hamburgers or cheeseburgers are more compatible with Dharma.

I respectfully disagree. One of the systems clearly advocates violence and coercion whereas the other is based on voluntary economic interactions between consenting individuals.

Yes, party politics disgusts me as it is completely fraudulent, but actively pursuing a system which is less coercive then the other is a moral responsibility to our children.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

May I ask you to expand a little on Moha and mAyA. Are they self similar or is there a large distinction between the two words?

Lets see if I can offer a perspective on this...

moha is bewilderment , perplexity , error. Some like to say it is the darkness or delusion of mind preventing the discernment of truth and leading people to believe in the reality of worldly objects.

• 0% knowledge + 100% ignorance = pure moha
• Some knowledge + some ignorance = doubts and this person can be called a śiṣya ( some write śishya) or student, or tapasvin¹
• 100% knowledge + 0% ignorance = brahmanirvāṇain or muni

When one has doubts it suggests that the intellect is at work probing, questioning and discovering. This is healthy. When there are no doubts, no insight, just thickness of dullness and mis-undersanding ( and thinking this mis-understanding is correct) is moha. One does not even know what he/she does not know.

Let's go a bit further and bring in māyā

What is this māyā ( there are many posts on this subject) ? It is rooted ( √ ) in mā or measuring and this 'yā' is restraining .
Yet many say māyā is the notion of illusion. How are these two i.e. illusion and measuring/restraining , connected?

Māyā is the illusion that the Infinite can be measured out or restrained. It is the idea that this Infinite Being that we experience
as the universe ( and what it contains) is made of parts, finite items, zillions of them, but still finite , within boundaries.
It is the boundless measured into the boundaries , this is the illusion of avidya ( ignorance).

I look at an iceberg and see only the top sticking out of the water. I think oh that is all there is to this mountain of ice. Yet I miss that the mass of this iceberg which is below the surface - the full stucture that only a piece appears above the water. It is the illusion I am seeing the whole thing by only seeing a part.

In ignorance māyā drives individuality; yet one that is fully realized, this māyā becomes the joy of diversity on how many ways this Being expresses itself in Fullness. Then one 'sees' sarvaṁ sarvātamkam or everything is everything else. The unity of creation. In kaśmir śaivism this transformation of māyā (of limits) becomes the play and display of śakti.

Now the question...
Is māyā and moha related? I can be the tapasvin¹, knowlegable about the ved, āgama-s, etc. I can be outside of moha, but still inside of māyā. I know what it is (māyā) but still live in a world of diversity.
Yet if I am totally deluded ( moha) māyā is not even a subject that enters my mind to consider.
In both cases they are the children of ignorance.

praṇām

words
tapasvin - still practicing ; working with and practicing tapas or austerity , penance , deep meditation , special observance, etc

[Mana]

Thank you Yajvan,

For your wisdom, beautifully clarified.

Is √ a Sanskrit Letter or symbol? I believe that you use it from time to time.

Pranam

Mana

[Sahasranama]

This is getting ridiculous. Neither Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, or any other modern Western economic ideology is 100% compatible with Dharma, which is why most sensible people, (including pro-Hindu groups in India like the BJP) recognize that a completely different solution is necessary. Read this: http://www.bjp.org/index.php?option=...134&Itemid=442

Arguing about whether Capitalism or Communism is better, from a Hindu standpoint...is like arguing about whether hamburgers or cheeseburgers are more compatible with Dharma.

Thank you for posting that link.

You are right, none of the arabic, greek, european, american polical ideologies can be compared with the teachings of dharma. It is important that Hindus and Indians develop their own political ideology based on dharmic teachings.

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

Thank you Yajvan, For your wisdom, beautifully clarified. Is √ a Sanskrit Letter or symbol? I believe that you use it from time to time.

It is the root sysmbol - a quick way of saying 'the root of' , just like saying the square root in mathmatics. I use it to hopefully ( some day ) just say agni is √ ag , fire. Then I will not have to write so much. So I am trying to prepare the reader for a future writing style.

praṇām

[Ramakrishna]

Namaste TheOne,

Step #5: Now that we realize that the state is an institution based on the initiation of force to achieve its goals the ONLY morally upright goal regarding it, is the elimination of it.

One of the systems clearly advocates violence and coercion whereas the other is based on voluntary economic interactions between consenting individuals.

Bryon is right, this is getting ridiculous. I don't want to pollute HDF with some pointless political debate that ultimately leads nowhere. Obviously if you advocate the elimination of the state and think that all forms of socialism advocate violence, then you are living in your own little world. One day you will see the world for what it really is, not black and white, and learn about it from other sources besides Youtube videos.

This is getting ridiculous. Neither Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, or any other modern Western economic ideology is 100% compatible with Dharma, which is why most sensible people, (including pro-Hindu groups in India like the BJP) recognize that a completely different solution is necessary. Read this: http://www.bjp.org/index.php?option=...134&Itemid=442

Arguing about whether Capitalism or Communism is better, from a Hindu standpoint...is like arguing about whether hamburgers or cheeseburgers are more compatible with Dharma.

I have actually been studying this philosophy over the past several weeks. It's very intriguing, and I completely agree about the need for Indians and Hindus to develop their own political ideology, as none of the western ones are fully compatible with Sanatana Dharma. Sort of like my first post when I wondered about the economic systems of the ancient Indian societies in the times of yore. The main thing I like about Integral Humanism is it's view of the individual man in society. Capitalism views the individual as an "economic man" only after material gain and wealth, whereas socialism views the individual as an "abstract man", lacking many senses of individuality and seemingly being a tool of the state. Integral Humanism views the individual as an "Integral Man", and (rightfully so) this system would only work successfully in a dharmic society that embraces the values and precepts of Dharma and realizes the true nature of Man.

Jai Sri Ram

[TheOne]

>Bryon is right, this is getting ridiculous. I don't want to pollute HDF with some pointless political debate that ultimately leads nowhere

If a healthy discussion about the morality of an institution of a system is considered "pollution" then that is ignorant.

>Obviously if you advocate the elimination of the state and think that all forms of socialism advocate violence, then you are living in your own little world.

The very existence of a state is based on an involuntary social contract which is immoral since there was no choice involved. If you dispute one of my claims, please provide a counter claim otherwise all you are doing is an ad hominum attack.


>One day you will see the world for what it really is, not black and white, and learn about it from other sources besides Youtube videos.

Yes, the world is not black and white, but that does not mean we can't make claims about the morality of an institution. Like I said, you have yet to make a counter claim and continue with the ad hominum attacks

[Friend from the West]

Namaste all,
My intent is not to step on toes, even though I recognize that conflict/friction can be healthy as well. To paraphrase the knower of the original question, respectfully he has the ability to correct my paraphrasing and to a poster, he has the same ability.
As a spectator, I viewed yajvan say as an example of two systems he has knowledge of and than expound from there. Essentially, I saw his post asking, "What of a society of the enlighted?" What system would be adapted and work well ?" Additionally, I saw this question posed to us from a SD perspective. Personally, did not see Byron dog anyone's comments but say Isms (present systems) out there are not compatible with why we are all here. He than offered a view that exists. Nothing more nothing less.
What an intriguing question posed by yajvan. With all of my weaknesses and prejudices, I thought yajvan asked us to think outside the box with all openness and create. Is it something that exists as a system already that needs tweaked, is it something that will be driven only by those that recognize the Divine in things as we do, to include ourselves and work on ourselves (as a Divine portion) in this, is it a different system that has not been tried, is it a present system that has been bastardized, etc.? We have been given the sense of the most absolute Divine, how can we help manifest this best in our society/world? In my present, I do not have the wisdom to even take a shot at this and I respect those that do in that it keeps thoughts going towards this most worthwhile goal.
I apologize if I am off the mark on this and I recognize that I have plenty of limitations in understanding of so much, but what a grand question posed by yajvan.