Is there anything wrong with being Christian?

[Jainarayan]

Namaste Rosemary,

Also, if we are so hated, then why are so many, many Hindus moving to the States? It seems to me that eventually the Hindus will be absorbed into our culture and ways. What if the American Hindus absorb the Christian religion the way the African-Americans did in the last few centuries?

People move all over the globe for different reasons irrespective of religion: economic, family ties, many reasons. Some Hindus may become fully westernized, even abandoning their culture and faiths. But not all.

It's a rare Greek, Italian, Latino, Russian or Pole who abandons Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, or abandons the "old ways" even in the US. Latinos have been in the US for decades, and if anything, Latino culture is blossoming, not fading or being absorbed. So, old cultures and traditions die hard. I think it highly unlikely that Indian-born Hindus will readily convert to Christianity.

The comparison of African Americans and Christianity v. American Hindus and Christianity is not a valid one. Hindus who migrate to the US and convert to Christianity do so of their own free will. African Americans, having been slaves and having had Christianity forced upon them had no such choice. Two hundred years later, it's an ingrained faith and way of life.

[BryonMorrigan]

Vannakkam Rosemary: I don't think the Vedanta Missions ever really proseltysed in the same way that some Christian sects go door to door or buy TV time.

Even ISKCON has never been so bold as to act with even the tiniest percentage of coercion, hatred, and trickery used by Christian missionaries. Indeed, the entire world-view of this tiny minority that engages in "Hindu Proselytism" is completely different from Christian proselytism...which starts from the assumption that the other person's religion is "evil" and "false," and then seeks to replace it with a belief system based on division and fear of "Hell."

I actually wrote extensively on the differences between such world-views, and how Christianity (and Islam) are incapable of coexisting with other religions in a pluralist society...unless they change from their doctrine of Exclusivism...which is probably one of the most "evil" concepts ever devised by Man. You can read it on Mohanty's blog: http://www.vmohanty.com/2011/biblica...ous-pluralism/

[BryonMorrigan]

The comparison of African Americans and Christianity v. American Hindus and Christianity is not a valid one. Hindus who migrate to the US and convert to Christianity do so of their own free will. African Americans, having been slaves and having had Christianity forced upon them had no such choice. Two hundred years later, it's an ingrained faith and way of life.

...and even then, after the brutal destruction of African American culture and religion...many traditional African practices and beliefs live on in Voudou, Santeria, and other Christian/African syncretic religions. But to compare American Hindus to the evils waged by Christian slavery? Hogwash.

[RosemaryOs]

...and even then, after the brutal destruction of African American culture and religion...many traditional African practices and beliefs live on in Voudou, Santeria, and other Christian/African syncretic religions. But to compare American Hindus to the evils waged by Christian slavery? Hogwash.

That isn't what I said. I said that the religion has been absorbed into the race. We didn't force it, not even a little bit. Try to tell an African American that Chrisitianity was forced or coerced. I don't think I can hear any of them admitting to that concept...

For them, Christianity is a good thing, not an evil being perpetrated on them. There is a difference.

[Arjuni]

Namast�, all,

I think now the thread is reaching the heart of the 'hostility' that some newcomers have noticed on coming to HDF: an anger against the spread of Christianity via Christian missionary activity, which Hindus abroad rightfully recognise as a threat to their culture and society, and which we experience even on this board from time to time as well.

I once thought of missionaries as well-meaning, though sorely misguided, souls who at least were trying to serve others based on the commands of their religious faith. And while it is true that there are some well-meaning, starry-eyed people who take part in this activity because they feel called to "spread the Good Word" worldwide, it is also true that conversion is a business, and a horrifically unscrupulous one at that.

A Vedanta teacher may come to the West and say, I'd like to tell you about this truth of the universe, this way of thinking and exploring that will change your life. A Westerner may say, No thank you, I already have my way of life, I have no wish to learn yours. The Vedanta teacher will move on. There are no penalties in Sanātana Dharma for being different.

The missionary may also say, I'd like to tell you about this truth of the universe, the story of God and his Son that will change your life. But an Easterner who tries to begin with, No thank you, I already have my way of life-- will face several insidious hooks. At its simplest physical level, the missionary may hold badly-needed food, medicine, or other help without which the individual or his family will be in dire straits. On a spiritual level, and more terrifying - especially to a person suffering hunger or pain - is the threat of hell. The penalty for not being Christian is eternal damnation, and the missionary does not have a problem implying to a sick or hungry person that his/her misery will be eternal and never-ending if s/he doesn't accept Jesus. And by its very nature, this fearful conversion is a domino effect that innately destroys families and homes; what mother wants her children to burn, what husband wants to enjoy heaven with his wife in hell, etc., on and on.

If Christians wish to have their word accepted and embraced on the same level as Vedanta beginning in the 1960s and '70s, to take the earlier example, then let them approach others and give without any ego inserted into the mix. Let them offer their word, and allow questions and decisions from healthy, sound-minded folks who are in a position to consider and argue. But this equal positioning may be impossible because there is inherent stratification built into Christian proselytizing: You cannot have an equal discussion with someone when you believe that you enjoy the Creator's grace and they do not. You cannot help but pity - and look down upon - someone when you believe that they are ignorant, misguided, and doomed.

The problem is not that Christianity is different. The problem is that it's a religion which believes in not only confronting this difference, but turning it into an argument that must have a winning and losing side. "I'm right, you're wrong" is something we all think from time to time, because of the ego, but ego is not an acceptable basis for a religion. No individual has the right to decide another's path to God. It's astounding how many Westerners would (rightfully) be appalled if a stranger came into their lives and started changing their d�cor, rethinking their wardrobes, sabotaging their careers, deciding their dating partner(s), or dictating their family relationships...but believe it's perfectly okay to send people halfway around the world to decide the fates of others' souls, and even donate money towards this "cause"!

One can believe in God, Jesus, the Trinity, the saints, any or all of these without being a part of the Organisation, the Church. Once a person claims the name "Christian" or the more specific title "Catholic," "Baptist," or whatever denomination, one implicitly agrees with and supports the policies, activities, and decisions of that organisation. Perhaps this is one reason we here on HDF bristle when a new member announces to us that s/he is "Christian": because we don't read this word as simply, "I believe in Jesus"; for us on this board, and for many in India, it often signifies, "I'm right, you're wrong, and I'm here to tell you why!"

Fortunately, though small comfort this, life-altering decisions made via coercion, fear, and panic sometimes don't stick, cultures and traditions die hard in people's minds and hearts...and the example provided of the slaves is actually an interesting one. Black Americans in the South often belong to churches which have a communal ecstatic, mystical, and expressive quality that is far more in keeping with traditional African religion than any widespread practices in Christianity, and some are converting to Afro-Caribbean faiths to embrace practices more in keeping with their ancestors' ways. At least after the horrors of slavery, they are finally free to do so, either way.

But Christian missionaries, in some places, are taking away the free choice of Indians and forcing them into conversions - whether via the trickery of staged "miracles," the implied threat of withheld aid, or the direct point of an AK-47 - and it amazes me is that any religion would claim these actions as "godly" or support them in any way.

Indraneela
===
Oṁ Indrāya Namaḥ.
Oṁ Namaḥ Śivāya.

[BryonMorrigan]

That isn't what I said. I said that the religion has been absorbed into the race. We didn't force it, not even a little bit. Try to tell an African American that Chrisitianity was forced or coerced. I don't think I can hear any of them admitting to that concept...

If you seriously believe that...then you are completely ignorant of American history in regards to slavery. It saddens me that the educational system has let you down so significantly. I suppose you think the Native Americans converted willingly as well. Perhaps you even think, like the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer, that the Native Americans deserved to be forcefully converted and/or wiped off the face of the Earth, because they, "lacked morals."

"Didn't force it"! LOL. "Not even a little bit!" LMAO. Yes, those Christian slave owners were just the pinnacle of moral behavior. They forced people into slavery...raped them...murdered them...split up families...destroyed their cultures...but forced them to convert to Christianity? Why! Heavens no! They would NEVER do such a thing! For Pete's sake...

Please buy a history book. Please. I'm begging you...

For them, Christianity is a good thing, not an evil being perpetrated on them. There is a difference.

And yes, after a couple hundred years of enslavement and forced conversion, people tend to "go with the flow." Most modern Germans are Christians, and don't think Christianity is "evil," but that doesn't mean that the 4,000 German chieftains who were beheaded by Charlemagne for refusing to convert to Christianity never died. It doesn't mean that the Northern Crusade never happened, or that the Christian Emperor Theodosius I never executed people for daring to worship the Roman Gods. The illogic of your thinking is astounding.

[RosemaryOs]

Dear Indraneela,

You have stated the case very clearly and beautifully.

Being a Christian is no more than a karmic factor for me. I am more attracted to Hinduism-- and more specifically to Vedanta. In my heart of hearts, I am probably a natural Hindu-- yet I learned very much about God from my Christian upbringing. Do I reject that learning? Not altogether.

There is a reason (in my mind) for how we are placed.

Should Swami Vivekananda (or one like him) come to me and say (as he did to Nivedita) totally dedicate yourself to India and to Sanatana Dharma and remake yourself as Indian, I would do it.

But I have never received that message in my heart by any means, intuitive or otherwise.

Thanks so much for your input. Your post has given me teaching.

Yours sincerely,
Rosemary

[RosemaryOs]

Just a quick reply to you, Bryan. I don't like being put on the defensive, but you ought to know to whom you are talking. I know a bit about history, especially history in my own Southern state.

Hinduism is probably the same as Christianity in this respect--- that it is what is in the heart that counts. In my hometown in the 1830's there lived a freed slave who became the largest slaveowner in the County. It was said of him that he treated his 163 slaves neither better nor worse than his white counterparts.

From "Blacks in Colonial America" by Oscar Reiss:

http://books.google.com/books?id=quwi6J7GZ6wC&pg=PA133&dq=john+carruthers+stanly&as_brr=3&ei=pLOtR-3oDJXaygTx6-SSDA&sig=YwTwfW_rkOp9-QuuHlLBxvPOhHI#v=onepage&q=john%20carruthers%20stanly&f=false

[wundermonk]

Sorry to all the Christian posters here or those who still have some Christianity in them as they are exploring Hinduism. There really is no reason why, if you convert to Christianity, you cannot convert to Islam. The theology is not that different between you guys...both of you worship the same God, both of you claim that previous messages were corrupted and hence your God had to end up correcting these messages by sending newer prophets. If you accept Jesus as a prophet, there is no reason I can see why you cannot accept old Mo as the prophet. Both of you believe infidels are going to burn in hell. Keep in mind that Islam has had 700 fewer years than Christianity to wreak havoc on this planet. Christian blood thirst is probably even more than those of the Arabs and the Turks. The God of the OT/NT is as vicious and hatemongering as Allah. So, can you all please convert to Islam so that Hinduism doesnt have to fight both of you guys at the same time? The very same arguments that can be used to destroy Islam theologically are applicable to Christianity.

As I see it, there is going to be (if not already) a huge bloodbath in the offing between Xians and Muslies. This is already happening in parts of Egypt, Iraq and Africa. Hell, even in our backyard, Kerala, Muslims chopped the hands off a Christian professor for allegedly blaspheming old Mo.

Keep fighting about which of your Gods is the real God and which of your prophets is the one true prophet and who is/isnt a Son of God, etc.

[wundermonk]

Here's an Indian Christian convert trying to defend the Bible against a Western deconvert. The irony of it all

As I see it, Christianity is completely losing its hold in the West. Here's an old but refreshing story.

PS1: The end of the video is a parody, but the question is brilliant and accurate! I would love to know how Dinesh responded to the question but couldnt find it in Youtube.

PS2: Found Dinesh's evasive non-answer here.