Restrictions in Pancharatra Diksha based on Janma

[NayaSurya]

Thank you for the information, it is always good to know about rules. I would love to read the full text of this if anyone can provide it? If not, I know it will probably pop up sometime when I am uploading/downloading on Scribd. The vastness of the information there is endless.

[Sahasranama]

The problem is that these people will continue to pose as brahmins and pretend to be bonafide and above all that is Hindu. Hindus should know that these people are only pretenders who are trying to build financial empires and large followings of disciples. ISCKON mandirs in India are recieving a lot of money from Indian people, but they take that money and ship it to America where they'll continue to say bad things about Hindus and Hinduism. There are Sri Vaishnava groups of white initiatees in Australia who set up online business scams for purohit courses with copy-paste material from wikipedia and plagiarism of other books. Hindus beware!

[devotee]

Namaste,

The worst that can happen to any society is adopting the ugliness of racism. Unfortunately, succumbing to the greed of transferring power to their progeny and subjugate others, the people who were Sudras by their karma but born to Brahmins manipulated many sacred texts to cater to their nefarious designs. The issue of Varna-ashram and jaati has been discussed on this forum earlier too. Those who have any doubts can read only one Upanishad which rips apart the Varna by birth theory : "VajrashUchikaa Upanishad". The question is if manusmriti in today's form is really untainted then why Hindus accepted Huns, Kushans etc. invading tribes as Kshatriyas ... whose blood is still flowing among uncountable number of Hindus. Were they not mlecchas ? Is our blood not already "tainted" with mleccha blood ? Who knows which mleccha was the forefather of which Kshatriya ? So, what is this all hue & cry ?

The fact that something is written in Sanskrit verse doesn't make it an authentic Shastra version. Sanskrit as as good or bad a language as English or french. Anyone can write anytthing in any language. So beware of such quotes. Smriti enjoys a much lower status as compared to Shruti. The propaganda with some malicious intent towards western Hindus that is being spread with this thread is deplorable in no uncertain terms.

The irony is that such tendency is seen among Hindus who are residing in western countries. Some, perhaps, have no intention to come back to India. Some were born in the so-called mleccha country. They have no problem in eating mleccha food, earning mleccha money, breathing in mleccha country, drinking mleccha water ... they won't survive if this mleccha support is withdrawn from them. However, they don't think even twice before writing something hurting towards the so-called mleccha people.

My dear friends, who are interested in spiritual upliftment and not indulging in this worst kind of discrimination against fellow Hindus, please denounce this tendency in one united voice of the all Hindus irrespective of their place of birth or lineage.

I solicit your support as this forum has been able to come to a highly commendable position on the internet a very healthy spiritual place for Satsanga & it pains to see that it is being used for such self-fulfilling propaganda of hatred.

OM

[wundermonk]

"To the knower of Brahman (Spirit), all the Vedas are of no more utility than is a reservoir when there is a flood from all directions": BG 2:46

न त्वं विप्रादिको वर्ण: नाश्रमी नाक्षगोचर: ।
असङगोऽसि निराकारो विश्वसाक्षी सुखी भव ।। १-५ ।।

"You are not a brahmin, or of any caste, or of any ashram (stage of life), nor are you anything the eye can see. You are unattached, formless, the witness of all, so be happy.": Ashtavakra Gita 1:5.

[Divine Kala]

That is only a translation of one chapter. ISCKON often translates only one chapter of a text. They have also only published one chapter of the Brahma Samhita, an important text in gaudiya vaishnavism. Nama parayana (chanting names) and bhakti are not limited to varnashrama dharma. That's not what I wanted to say. I am specifically talking about initiation (diksha) into pancharatra agama with pancha sanskara (tapa, pundram, dasya nama, mantra upadesha and yaga) which is only reserved for people who are born within the matrix of varnashrama dharma.

Forgive me, Sahasranama, for my ignorance but what is pancaratra?

[Sahasranama]

Forgive me, Sahasranama, for my ignorance but what is pancaratra?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pancaratra

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste,

This thread has quickly become very unsavory. I am quite sure it was not Sahasranama's intent for the thread to devolve into petty arguments.

Guys, come on. I've been in Sahasranama's situation many times before on this forum. He is stating what we already know to be true. He is NOT saying non-Indians cannot be Hindu. He is stating, as I've stated, that non-Indian Hindus, who don't have the right jan, birth/lineage, cannot circumvent VarnASramA.

It is really sad to see Devotee and Sahasranama argue with each other. Both of you are knowledgeable Hindus. There is no point behaving like this towards each other.

Sahasranama, I do have to say you have really gone overboard with your disdain for Sai Baba. I don't know what reasons you have for that, but it is really bad to denigrate a Hindu gurU like that, especially one who is revered by many on HDF. Just leave Sai Baba out of these discussions. This is about convert VaiSnavAs and their air of superiorty.

This Varna debate has MANY threads devoted to it on HDF. I suggest all newcomers read those threads; especially the one that "Nara" started and is about 15 pages or so in length. There are good points on both sides of the issue.

One thing is certain, however. There can be in no way, shape, or form, a non-Indian Hindu to become an AcharyA; they simply do NOT have the adhIkArA for it. There is no "interpretation" or discussion about it. End of story.

This thread was about that issue; that many so-called VaiSnavAs pretend to be Brahmins and ill-treat other Hindus, ones who are born Hindu even. That is what Sahasranama was talking about.

Let bygones be bygones. Let's talk about philosophy. How about we all have a nice, warm samosa and some buttermilk to calm our nerves?

[devotee]

Namaste all those who may be interested,

Diksha in vaishnavism is not meant for westerners. Here is pramanam from shashtra.

अथातः संप्रवक्ष्यामि वर्णाचारविधिक्रमम्।
ब्राह्मणः क्षत्रियो वैश्यः शूद्रश्चेति चतुर्विधाः॥
विष्णोः शरीरजाता वै मुखबाहूरुपादतः।
अत्रानुलोमजाः श्रेष्ठाः वर्ज्याश्च प्रतिलोमजाः॥
प्रतिलोमेषु सर्वेषु सूत एकस्तु गृह्यते।
न दातव्याः परे दीक्षां सर्वे च प्रतिलोमजाः।
न च संस्कारमर्हन्ति वर्णाश्रमबहिष्कृताः॥

Sanat Kumara Samhita.

Westerners who are interested in Hinduism should not seek diksha in vaishnavism, they may seek their path in Shaivism or Shaktims or can become unititated bhaktas who do nama parayana, but not the rituals of vaishnava agama or smarta/ shrauta.

First of all, the shloka mentioned above doesn't talk anything about Westerners. It talks about "VarNasharambahishkritah" which means who have been thrown out of VarNashram. A person can be thrown out of a society only when he is allowed to join it. This is not the case with "Westerners".

It is surprising how this has been translated as "Westerners" !

OM

[devotee]

Again, where is it written that a Westerner has no right to go through "pancharatra" ? Is this what Ramanuja taught ??

OM

[Sahasranama]

I have not even claimed to have provided a translation. But it is clear from the use of anuloma, suta and pratiloma that birth is the deciding factor here.