Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 34

Thread: Restrictions in Pancharatra Diksha based on Janma

  1. #21
    Join Date
    January 2007
    Location
    duhkhalayam asasvatam
    Posts
    1,450
    Rep Power
    92

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Pranam

    Wow
    I must say adhikar or eligibility, to exercise that, should not be construed as racists or what ever.

    No one takes issue when certain criteria is applied to gain entry in to a university .

    Vernashram (I hope this does not turn in to another debate) is the very fabric on which the whole hindu dharma has and will be maintained. There were constrained within each varna, rules and regulation so what to speak of those who are outside of it, what adhikar do they have? Who can judge their criteria?

    I have heard many say, oh yes are they not doing a great job spreading the truth? To them I say what is there to spread? Is truth something one can purchase in the street ? No, it is for imbibing in one self, it is not some thing one can distribute like the Muslims and Christians do.

    Prabhupad made thousands of devotees whom he even never met, yet gave them diksa made them Brahmins by way of tape recoding mantra diksa!!! what was the result, Americans devotees had to declare them self bankrupt due to litigation they faced for abuse.

    I have witness few Gurus fall from grace in the UK, now they dont have a picture of current guru in the temple simply because they have seen all those were there before, disgraced themselves.

    Having said all this, this is Kali yug, yug dharma is to chant the holy names, for that there is no bar to any one. What does Krishna says;

    Even if the most sinful person resolves to worship Me with single-minded loving devotion, such a person must be regarded as a saint because of making the right resolution. (9.30)

    Such a person soon becomes righteous and attains everlasting peace. Be aware, O Arjuna, that My devotee never perish. (9.31)



    Note, he is saying they soon become righteous, nothing about becoming Brahmins or Acharya, why would they want this status? Having not studied the Vedas, (it requires dedication discipline from very young age) yet this guys have goal to denigrate Hindu gurus, as not authentic this does disturb me.

    Jai Shree Krishna
    Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
    Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
    The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    I have not even claimed to have provided a translation.
    Because you didn't know the translation, you found it convenient to interpret in your own way ! That is a good way of interpreting Shastras !!

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #23
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    1,278
    Rep Power
    1651

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    But they should not cross boundries and start doing the work of brahmins.
    Who exactly decides what and where the boundaries are? Who exactly decides the "work of Brahmins"? Is there a list of approved professions somewhere on the web that I can look up and figure out which caste I am in?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    February 2008
    Location
    Green Hill in KY USA
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,186
    Rep Power
    2563

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    If the written laws say we are not eligible then this would be something I deeply concede to.

    I think this issue is often lost in our specific cultures of birth. When others do not understand that in India, very young children begin training to learn verses very very precisely in order to become Acharya and other high places?

    But, the thing which made me go look to Shiva Purana was the fact the word "westerner" was used. This somehow didn't settle with what I have read in Shastra.

    There are two things mixing in this thread...one...varna less beings? and if converts can become higher ones?

    But, despite these two being very different, I believe the words used in this thread made them, once again unite...because there is this underlying discrimination going on...not with Beloved Brahmins...but with ones ignorant and born in the wrong place, such as myself.

    If this thread could begin again, throw out the anger and racial terms?

    Then have a truly informative thread on what convert should expect...would this not be good for everyone?

    Speaking as not a convert, but one truly born in a body which from the moment it became developed enough to seek...began to find this way home. I will tell you...very few upon this arduous path would seek to make waves...we are sincerely trying to find our place in Beloved's Dream. We want to follow every rule!

    When I became to know the name of what it was I was doing all these years....and it was Dharma...I felt the sky was no limit!

    Then hit the ceiling when I found out what I truly was in the eyes of many....some cursed being.

    But, I leave you with something I kept on a crumpled paper when I became sad about bringing my children up in this religious philosophy and knowing there would come some distant day in their future when they saw the ceiling created by such threads and knew they hit it. This thread and the wisdom contained, would make them feel better as it always does for me.

    http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...0&postcount=15


    ---------------------------

    "catur-varnyam maya srstam
    guna-karma-vibhagasah
    tasya kartaram api mam
    viddhy akartaram avyayam

    The four Varna or divisions of human society, based on aptitude and vocation, were created by Me. Though I am the author of this system, one should know that I do nothing and I am eternal. (See also 18.41) (4.13)

    brahmana-ksatriya-visam
    sudranam ca parantapa
    karmani pravibhaktani
    svabhava-prabhavair gunaih


    The division of labor into the four cate-goies -- Braahmana, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudra -- is also based on the Gunas inherent in peoples' nature (or the natural propensities, and not necessarily as one's birth right), O Arjuna. (See also 4.13) (18.41)

    It is quite clear guna and karma plays an important part in establishing this system. So where does birth fit in all this?
    The varna system today is in dire state, but still plays an important part in the society weather we like it or not.

    It has become fashionable to blame the Varna system especially the birth based, the chaos that we see, this inequality (exists in every society) has made the cast system the main target of blame not without some justification, also an easy target for those forces who conspire to malign Hindu dharma.

    At what point varna would best be decided.How would a varna system function, who would decide what varna one belong to? Just as in school we get graded according to our ability and final result at the end of a term so in my understanding the birth plays a significant role in deciding the varna of a person. . After all if we believe in karma then it is at the end of ones life time we have to accept our new beginning.
    Of course in an exceptional circumstance a student may be promoted to higher class so there always remains a scope to change ones varna in the same lifetime

    yam yam vapi smaran bhavam
    tyajaty ante kalevaram
    tam tam evaiti kaunteya
    sada tad-bhava-habitat

    Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. (8.06)

    Such a yogi is born in a family of wise transcendentalists. A birth like this is very difficult, indeed, to obtain in this world. (6.42)

    After taking such a birth, O Arjuna, one regains the knowledge acquired in the previous life, and strives again to achieve perfection. (6.43)

    Jai Shree Krishna"


    Jai Shree Krishna, Beloved<3

    I wanted to say that by crumpled, I mean that I do read it so much that it is very worn. Because it is Beloved Krishna's Divine Prescription for us to follow and it is very precious to me.
    Last edited by NayaSurya; 28 July 2011 at 10:24 AM. Reason: to add a lil clarification at the end.<3

  5. #25
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Who exactly decides what and where the boundaries are? Who exactly decides the "work of Brahmins"? Is there a list of approved professions somewhere on the web that I can look up and figure out which caste I am in?
    Who is a Brahmin ? Is Brahmin a caste ? Is it gained by being born to a couple of Brahmin caste ?

    VajraShUchika Upanishad tells us that Brahmin is not by birth. A Brahmin by caste need not be a Brahmin by Varna.

    See, Caste and Varna are two different things. Caste is decided by your occupation and varna is decided by your Guna and karma as explained by Lord Krishna in BG. There were many lower castes in India who were taken in Kshatriya Varna and also the Kshatriyas who once were ruling clan when defeated were assimilated into lower castes (mostly in vaishya varna) as per the occupations they took. This is based on actual History of Hindus.

    There is only one caste who has remained untainted is Brahmins. There was no caste which was upgraded to this caste or they were also not denigrated to lower castes unless there was a case of Anulom - Pratilom.

    Therefore, all Hindus by default are either in one Varna or the other whether they are part of caste system or otherwise. However, there is no caste system for non-Indian Hindus as the caste system is peculiar only to India where not only Hindus but Muslims are too divided into various castes.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  6. #26
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    1,278
    Rep Power
    1651

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee
    VajraShUchika Upanishad tells us that Brahmin is not by birth. A Brahmin by caste need not be a Brahmin by Varna. There were many lower castes in India who were taken in Kshatriya Varna and also the Kshatriyas who once were ruling clan when defeated were assimilated into lower castes (mostly in vaishya varna) as per the occupations they took.
    OK. So, this tells me that Brahmins (B), Vaishyas (V), Kshatriyas (K) and Shudras (S) could be either a caste (profession over which one has control) OR varna (guna over which one has no control as some of it is based on past Karma). In the same life, I can be in K caste and B varna, S caste and V varna etc. I assume Varna is decided by birth but not caste. Is a Tamil "Iyer" or "Iyengar" a Brahmin by caste or varna or neither?

    There is only one caste who has remained untainted is Brahmins.
    Could you expand on this?

    Therefore, all Hindus by default are either in one Varna or the other whether they are part of caste system or otherwise.
    As I see it BG is applicable to the entire world. So, whatever is mentioned in the BG by Krishna is not applicable to Hindus alone. It ought to apply to EVERYONE. So, would it be fair to rephrase your statement as follows:

    Therefore, all Humans by default are either in one Varna or the other whether they are part of caste system or otherwise.
    My question from before still remains. When someone says something like

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama
    But they should not cross boundries and start doing the work of brahmins.
    it seems what is being referred to here is caste and not varna.

    Who exactly decides what and where the boundaries are? Who exactly decides the "work of Brahmins"? Is there a list of approved professions somewhere on the web that I can look up and figure out which caste I am in?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    1,278
    Rep Power
    1651

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by NayaSurya View Post
    Teaching, study (svādhyāya), performing Yajna, make performing Yajna, accept Daana, and give Daana are the six duties of a Brahmin.

    So you see, it isn't professions it is holy things.
    Thanks Naya...The question STILL remains though. Is someone born in a "Brahmin" family a Brahmin? If yes, the question still remains unresolved because now we need to define what is a "Brahmin" family, and so on, ad infinitum.

    If a Muslim teaches, studies, performs a Muslim equivalent of Yajna and is philanthropic, is he a Brahmin by varna since he would fall outside the caste system?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    December 2007
    Age
    63
    Posts
    3,218
    Rep Power
    4728

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    OK. So, this tells me that Brahmins (B), Vaishyas (V), Kshatriyas (K) and Shudras (S) could be either a caste (profession over which one has control) OR varna (guna over which one has no control as some of it is based on past Karma). In the same life, I can be in K caste and B varna, S caste and V varna etc. I assume Varna is decided by birth but not caste. Is a Tamil "Iyer" or "Iyengar" a Brahmin by caste or varna?
    There are two separate things which are being mixed here. I will tell you again :

    a) Varna is decided by Guna and Karma & not by birth --- This is what Lord Krishna says in BG, this is what VajrashUchika Upanishad says & that is what Shanti-parva of Mahabharata says. However, the "birth" part cannot be altogether negated here because birth is too based on Guna and Karma.

    You are right. This Varna system applies to the whole mankind and not only to Hindus.

    b) Caste is decided by birth and your occupation :

    Caste system is based on inheritance of occupation of father by son. So, the son takes the caste of his father. However, there have been cases where the son has though belonging to a lower caste has upgraded himself to a higher caste and also Varna. For example, Chandragupta Mourya belonged to Mura tribe which came in Shudra Varna. However, after becoming King, he was counted among Kshatriyas. Similarly, there were many Kshatriyas who were defeated in war and lost their status in society and were reverted to castes of either Vaishya or the Shudra Varna.

    When we talk in normal language & use the word as Brahmin we actual talk about the caste and not the Varna. For being elligible to be of Brahmin Varna, one has to possess the Guna & Karma of a Brahmin which is narrated in Chapter 18 of BG.

    Could you expand on this?
    History tells us that Hindu society didn't accept upgradation of any person of lower caste to Brahmin caste. It was always based on birth to a Brahmin couple. So, the Brahmins are respected by all Hindus in general & they alone are accepted as Pooja-performers etc.

    My question from before still remains. When someone says something like

    But they should not cross boundries and start doing the work of brahmins.
    Every caste is delegated with some work in the Hindu society and so all works related to worship are entrusted to Brahmins (Please refer to Naya Surya's post where the work of Brahmins are written). No Hindu, in general wants to violate this rule ... that includes me too. However, the question arises what happens when there is no eligible Brahmin around or readily available ? Will the Sun not rise if the Cock will not say "Cock a doodle do" ? It is not so.

    There has been objection on Non-Brahmins giving Diksha. People can't be so naive ! Diksha is given only by the Sannyaasis and Sannyasis are out of the caste-system. Once a person takes Sannyaasa, he is beyond all Varnas.caste-system. There have been many saints who were Sudras by caste before taking Sannyaas. So, there can be no objection if a western Sannyaasi gives diksha to anyone. There is a saying in Hindi :

    "Never ask the caste of a Sadhu" .... Jaat na poochho Sadhu ki.

    Who exactly decides what and where the boundaries are? Who exactly decides the "work of Brahmins"? Is there a list of approved professions somewhere on the web that I can look up and figure out which caste I am in?
    Dear friend, you cannot impose upon you what you should do or what not. That will be decided by your Guna and Karma. Your nature would force you to get engaged in the work according to your Varna. A person should do the work of Varna to which he belongs (mind it ... I am not talking of caste). This is what Lord Krishna says in BG. The work which naturally attracts you & you are able to do it with your inherent Gunas is your work & that decides your caste too

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  9. #29
    Join Date
    September 2009
    Posts
    623
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Because you didn't know the translation, you found it convenient to interpret in your own way ! That is a good way of interpreting Shastras !!

    OM

    Yes, I think this is where the issue of western discrimination lies. Otherwise it would contradict the Upanishads:

    Isavasya Upanishad:

    6. He who perceives all beings in the Self alone, and the Self in all beings, does not entertain any hatred on account of that perception.

    7. When a man realises that all beings are but the Self, what delusion is there, what grief, to that perceiver of oneness?

  10. #30
    Join Date
    November 2010
    Posts
    1,278
    Rep Power
    1651

    Re: Vaishnava Deeksha, not meant for westerners

    b) Caste is decided by birth and your occupation :
    Caste system is based on inheritance of occupation of father by son.
    These days, it is pretty rare [IMO] that a son/daughter does the work done by his/her parents. As far as I am concerned caste is meaningless in today's globalized and educated economy. With more and more people getting educated I would say the number of Brahmins (by Varna) is growing in the world, if education is related to "Brahmins".

    For being elligible to be of Brahmin Varna, one has to possess the Guna & Karma of a Brahmin which is narrated in Chapter 18 of BG.
    Thanks for the chapter number. I am going to be reading it tonight.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •