Please make Varna Threads a "Sticky" in Philosophy Section

[TatTvamAsi]

Namaste Satay,

Please make certain Varna threads "Sticky" in the Philosophy section. All newcomers should read that thread to get a solid understanding and basis on the subject.

These "Varna" threads crop up often and almost always end in some argument and/or someone leaving/getting banned. I know, I speak from experience!

here are the threads:

1.) Bhagavad Gita: Varna System Misunderstandin [Mukunda20] --> http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5491

2.) With a Heavy Heart [Nara] --> http://hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=5556

These two for now should suffice IMO.

Thanks.

Namaskar.

[devotee]

Yes, I second it. This will save a lot of time for all of us.

OM

[wundermonk]

I went through both discussion threads provided in the OP. As I see it, user Nara is almost begging the rest of us here to accept his position as the gospel truth about the varna system. User Devotee (and others) have pointed out the many faults with user Nara's position. I agree with user Devotee and others. Sruthi sublates Smriti and there is nothing in the Vedas/BG/Upanishads that establish that Varna is something one is born into from day 1 of his/her life on earth.

I find that it serves no useful purpose to make Varna threads a sticky. Hinduism is so much more than the Varna system. I already provided two references in my post here that shows that at the highest levels of reality (Paramartha) even the Vedas or Varnas are irrelevant to Brahman. Making something sticky elevates it as something that defines Hinduism. This is certainly not true with the Varna system in Paramartha.

As to some users' feeling that Westeners are abrogating to themselves the work of "Brahmins" - this position can only be held by someone who holds that the Varna system is applicable only to Indian Hindus. It clearly doesnt. Krishna created the entire universe and is the creator/preservor/destroyer of ALL of the universe, not just Indian Hindus.

[devotee]

I went through both discussion threads provided in the OP. As I see it, user Nara is almost begging the rest of us here to accept his position as the gospel truth about the varna system. User Devotee (and others) have pointed out the many faults with user Nara's position. I agree with user Devotee and others. Sruthi sublates Smriti and there is nothing in the Vedas/BG/Upanishads that establish that Varna is something one is born into from day 1 of his/her life on earth.

I find that it serves no useful purpose to make Varna threads a sticky. Hinduism is so much more than the Varna system. I already provided two references in my post here that shows that at the highest levels of reality (Paramartha) even the Vedas or Varnas are irrelevant to Brahman. Making something sticky elevates it as something that defines Hinduism. This is certainly not true with the Varna system in Paramartha.

As to some users' feeling that Westeners are abrogating to themselves the work of "Brahmins" - this position can only be held by someone who holds that the Varna system is applicable only to Indian Hindus. It clearly doesnt. Krishna created the entire universe and is the creator/preservor/destroyer of ALL of the universe, not just Indian Hindus.

Dear WonderMonk,

I am sad to tell you that this topic has been one of the cause for which quite a few members left this forum. Sri Nidhi is the latest to leave this forum on this issue yesterday. So, I think TTA's suggestion can be considered for making those threads sticky, so that if anyone wants to discuss anything related to Varna/Caste should first read those threads and if still have any doubts, he/she should raise the same on this forum.

I don't understand the compulsion of people who want to show their superiority by raking up such issues. I think it might be coming out of some deep-rooted inferiority complex or as a revenge towards those who have maltreated them in the past.

In Hinduism, there is no Pope and there is no Mullah who dictates & decides for a person what to do. Unfortunately, due to long history of being under subjugation of invading foreigners, greed of some of Brahmins to keep their supremacy intact .... it is difficult to point out the real cause but there are very real doubts that some of the Smritis & Puranas/Itihasas were manipulated to suit the interests of a group of people. It is not that I am the only person doubting them. There are many Hindu philosophers/Scholars who have raised the same issue.

Whenever such conflicts arise, our only authority is Shruti/the Vedas. If something is in contradiction to whatever any other lower status shastras like Smritis/Itihasas/Puranas say then Shruti would prevail. In this particular case, Shruti is against the Varna by birth theory. Shruti also differentiates between Caste and Varna. In spite of this, these issues will keep coming up in future also. Born Hindus themselves have not cared for many irrelevant rules contained in Manusmriti etc. They go by what the society accepts at that time. Hindus are ever evolving society who keep pace with the changing times. How many Hindus have ever read Manusmriti, let alone follow it ?

Once you declare yourself a Hindu, Shruti, your own conscience and direct inspiration from God on Self-realisation are the only true guides. There are many Gurus who have gone against this Varna/Caste system & adopted ways to make life easier for the Hindus.

OM

[Mana]

The Buddha. As one who renounced his cast, was he reacting against this established order?

When was the cast system established and by whom?


Please excuse my ignorance.

Thank you.


Pranam

Mana

[devotee]

The Buddha. As one who renounced his cast, was he reacting against this established order?

When was the cast system established and by whom?

No. It doesn't reflect from his life that Buddha got embroiled into such issues.

Buddha from traditional Hindu point of view was a Sannyaasi. In fact, he left his house to take Sannyaas. A Sannyaasi has to renounce everything that is worldly :

a) He leaves his name and gets a new name
b) He leaves his family for ever & breaks relationship with everyone in his family & house and never enters his house except as an outsider Sannyaasi for asking for alms etc. as Buddha did
c) He leaves his caste as he becomes beyond the Chaturvarna system. He is not bound by any karma/achaar samhita meant for different varnas
d) He renounces his worldly existence by burning his own funeral pyre symbolically

.... there are many other very strict injunctions applicable to Sannyaasis ... renouncing caste is a very small thing in comparison to what other things he has to renounce for ever. Please refer to Upanishads for complete details.

OM

[TatTvamAsi]

The Buddha. As one who renounced his cast, was he reacting against this established order?

When was the cast system established and by whom?


Please excuse my ignorance.

Thank you.


Pranam

Mana

Devotee has explained it well.

Buddha renounced his caste because he took Sannyas (path of renunciation). This is also the 4th "order" in Hindu life; BrahmacAryA, grHstA, vAnaprastA, SannyAs. This "life" with 4 orders actually takes several lifetimes of progress. Buddha was at the 4th stage in his life as Siddhartha Gautama.

Caste is natural in manifestation. It was not "ordained" by anyone. In the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna states that he was the arbiter of the 4-fold system known as CaturVarnA (4 castes). Those outside of those varnA are called mlecchas.

[satay]

Admin Note

Locked for being off topic.