Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

[prabhupad fan]

How are they both logically consistent?

Thanks.

[Kismet]

How are they both logically consistent?

Thanks.

Well, the standard objection to free will in the West (as far as I can tell) is that it either a) contradicts Divine Foreknowledge, or b) contradicts God's Sovereignty (as the controller of all that is).

Transposing the discussion into talk about Krishna's omnipotence which is not a topic for classical theism (again, in the Western sense) may or may not be more problematic. I don't really know enough to tell. However, I think that ultimately the first problem of Divine Foreknowledge can be more easily defused than that of God's supreme sovereignty over nature.

Imagine God being omnipresent throughout the whole length and breadth of infinite time. God then does not have to "foreknow" our actions. He can simply see them as they are taking place moment by moment, God (Krishna) seeing all present moments at once as it were.

This in spite of the fact that a physical bare-bones description of time is bereft of what philosophers would call "indexical terms." In other words there is no "present" or "here" or "now." Kala is ever-shifting, going full-stop. How this can be conceived itself boggles the mind into submission.

Pranam.

[AnrBjotk]

Pardon my ignorance, but from a pantheist standpoint the two are not mutually exclusive. Is it not possible that man has a free will destined by Krishna?

AB

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté


Let's look to what kṛṣṇa says in the bhāgavad gītā (chapter 2, 47th śloka)
karmaṇi evādhikāras te
mā phalesu kadācana
mā karma-phala-hetur bhūr
mā te saṅgo'stv akarmaṇi

This says, you certainly (eva) have ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of your (te or ti) karmaṇi (of your actions) , but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu) .

Just so there is no confusion - 'but never or not (mā) of its fruits (phalesu)' clearly points that the individual cannot control the outcome. You do not have a choice on the level of success or failure that may result from that action that is initiated.


Lets take an example:
Everything on this earth is born of an action. Every thing we do.
You stand up and you walk from point A to point B. That is an action and you arrive at point B. You have just achieved the fruit of your action. You open your eyes ( an action) and you perceive the world ( the fruit of your action). If you perform an action there is a re-action to it. Since you had an intention to do something, you then by the mechanics of this Universe get the reaction to it. That is the fruit. Actions you choose comes with reactions or results, the fruit.

What you cannot choose ( says Kṛṣṇa) is the quality of your result. We have talked of this before and do not have a better example then this - baseball.
My intent, my choice my ādhikāra (claim , right , privilege, control) of actions karmaṇi, to hit the ball is mine. Yet I do not get to choose the level of results that will occur. I wish to hit a home run, but that remains uncertain and outside my control.

But why so ? Chapter 2, 47th śloka, unfathomable is the course of action, says Kṛṣṇa. There are mutiple influences to one's actions: One's past, other's participating in the influence, the universe participating in the influence.

praṇām

[Jainarayan]

I sometimes think people have a misunderstanding of what omnipotence is. Omnipotence is the power to do anything. It is not control of another being unless the omnipotent being wants to control the other being.

Clearly Krishna does not want to control anyone. But that does not mean He cannot. His omnipotence allows Him to do anything and know everything past, present and future, but He does not control it, like a puppeteer working a marionette. We have free will to do anything we want. Though He knows our intentions and the outcome of our actions, He does not stop us nor does He push us into doing anything.

This is something that, good or bad, I learned in my western upbringing and I believe: God has a "hands-off" approach, though He knows what will happen. Think of it as a spectator at a football game who knows how the game will end. And let's say the spectator can control the outcome of the game, but he doesn't. I think of God as the spectator who knows all, could control it, but doesn't. There's our free will and God's omnipotence. At least it works for me.

[Jainarayan]

Well, the standard objection to free will in the West (as far as I can tell) is that it either a) contradicts Divine Foreknowledge, or b) contradicts God's Sovereignty (as the controller of all that is).

And therein lies the source of "it's God's will" or "God willing". It's forgetting what people learned in Sunday School: God gave Man free will, then tested Man knowing Man would fail the test. The western God is a control freak, and too many people carry that concept with them to their graves.

Why did God test Man, knowing Man would fail? Because there's the perverted western concept of God being a control freak. People pay lip service to the idea of free will, but in the western mind, sure you can do as you please, but God knows you're going to sin and He's going to roast you after you die. That's more than a little twisted.

[sunyata07]

Namaste,

How does God's omnipotence fit in with the free-will we have to make choices vs. determined reactions of the universe? Is He above both these (i.e. action and reaction), or is actually apart of the freewill? Do we delude ourselves into thinking we have free will, when in fact it is He doing the moving, choosing, acting - if we remember that not a single blade of grass moves without Krishna's will? Surely the same can and must be said of our actions.

So are we really free to choose, or has it been established from the start according to God's will? I have always been a little confused about the free will vs. determinism argument in theology.

Om namah Shivaya

[proudhindu]

How are they both logically consistent?

Thanks.

They is no inconsistency because The Jivas are allowed to choose their Path.

If the omnipotent(God) chooses your(I.e. the individual's) destiny then there is no free will.

There is a brief explanation at http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...34&postcount=8

[Adhvagat]

The omnipotency of God is related to God being the base of it all.

Don't you think God is the very base for every cell and particle of your body (our machinery for actions in this world)? Yet, he gives us freedom to realize him through our own natural path.

We need to let go of this partial and exclusivist concept of God that is present on Abrahamic traditions. Most of the Bible words on God's control are neutral and this poor understanding comes mostly from Christianity's own lack of philosophical clarity.

[prabhupad fan]

Imagine God being omnipresent throughout the whole length and breadth of infinite time. God then does not have to "foreknow" our actions. He can simply see them as they are taking place moment by moment, God (Krishna) seeing all present moments at once as it were.

The mechanism by which he knows the future is irrelevant. It is fact that right now I'm somehow making free decisions in forward-moving linear time.

What you cannot choose ( says Kṛṣṇa) is the quality of your result

I'm not discussing the results of my actions, only the genesis of action. Thanks for the response, but please use less font/sizes/colors, it was difficult to quote you.

His omnipotence allows Him to do anything and know everything past, present and future, but He does not control it, like a puppeteer working a marionette. We have free will to do anything we want. Though He knows our intentions and the outcome of our actions, He does not stop us nor does He push us into doing anything.

I never said he controls our actions. I'm saying if he knows perfectly what I will do, then I cannot do otherwise (unless Krishna is wrong), hence no free will.

An example: if I choose between orange juice or apple juice, and Krishna knows I'll choose orange, then I can never choose apple juice here. There is no free choice b/c before I consciously make the decision (i.e experience the illusion of freewill), it is already known what decision I will make. We're like predictable, falling dominoes, a third person may not control the dominoes but he knows where they will land and the dominoes have no choice over that.