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Thread: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

  1. #11

    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    Quote Originally Posted by prabhupad fan View Post
    The mechanism by which he knows the future is irrelevant. It is fact that right now I'm somehow making free decisions in forward-moving linear time.
    Well, that's the sort of thing with this view held by folks like Boethius and Aquinas. The mechanism for knowing is important, because, depending on whether God knows or foreknows, this has bearing on the issue of whether we are free.

    For instance, if I fore-knew you would be at so-and-so place at five o'clock tomorrow than it would be a fact you couldn't deviate from.

    But, let's say that right now you were standing in front of me and this very instant pulled out a revolver from your side-pocket. In that moment I "know" you have a gun; I didn't foreknow it. But, what's more, if you hadn't pulled it out, than my knowing that wouldn't have any bearing on your free volition, since you could have pulled out a gun. So in both cases, even though I know the fact, you are free.

    So, I'm sure you can argue with this line of thought - but at least it offers something of a solution - or at least a beginning to one - taking into account a truly omnipresent and omniscient God.
    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

  2. #12

    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kismet View Post
    But, let's say that right now you were standing in front of me and this very instant pulled out a revolver from your side-pocket. In that moment I "know" you have a gun; I didn't foreknow it. But, what's more, if you hadn't pulled it out, than my knowing that wouldn't have any bearing on your free volition, since you could have pulled out a gun. So in both cases, even though I know the fact, you are free.
    Can you clarify this thought/example.

    Are you saying Krishna knows that I have gun in my pocket, but it's up to me to fire it? I'm not sure if that's consistent with what Krishna says, he explicitly says he knows "past, present and future." Not to mention that me pulling out a gun has enormous effect on the future. If I shoot the guy, it completely alters the future from when I don't shoot the guy.

  3. #13

    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    Quote Originally Posted by prabhupad fan View Post
    An example: if I choose between orange juice or apple juice, and Krishna knows I'll choose orange, then I can never choose apple juice here.
    Hare KrushNa

    It is a gigantic board game KrushNa is playing with the jivas. Who rolls the die ? Jiva. What's on the die ? the parameters of prakruti as listed below.
    It is like arguing, oh the gravity knew you were going to play a one and not a six. KrushNa knew the wind direction, centrifugal force, your emotions, hand coordination, the energy you had in your body, your tossing and concentration skills...

    But *you-the-jiva* particularly the embodied jiva, did not know.

    KrushNa-the-engine/system/robot "knows" that you will choose orange juice. Such cellular information (sort-of like at the cell level) does not excite or interest KrushNa-the-Person.

    KrushNa-the-Person leaves that on auto-pilot, letting the kArmic system take care of itself - as it is preprogrammed with prakruti-parameters of the three modes of material nature (sattva raja tama), past saMskArs, past actions, surroundings, culture, external influence from others, society etc. etc.

    However, the jiva being non-omniscient, does not know yesterday what she will choose tomorrow unless it is merely a known fact that she always likes orange juice more than apple.

    Suppose this jiva is really indecisive. Then she thinks back and forth, and finally settles on orange juice. KrushNa is not sitting there smiling - "told ya!" although He knows what she will choose.

    So, the bottom-line is , the "knowledge" that the prakruti-system knew and KrushNa knew but did not care, is unknown to the jiva.

    This seems a puzzle only because we are time-bound and KrushNa and His avyakta prakruti are not. So within the realm/dimension of time, the jiva thinks she has to choose. It is in the jiva's best interest to make the best educated choice, because if not now, it will be later that she will go back to KrushNa (GodHead).


    praNAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

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    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    Since you are a Prabhupada Fan (A.C. Bhaktivedanta, I presume), do you have any sayings of Prabhupada regarding this matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by prabhupad fan View Post
    The mechanism by which he knows the future is irrelevant. It is fact that right now I'm somehow making free decisions in forward-moving linear time.

    An example: if I choose between orange juice or apple juice, and Krishna knows I'll choose orange, then I can never choose apple juice here. There is no free choice b/c before I consciously make the decision (i.e experience the illusion of freewill), it is already known what decision I will make. We're like predictable, falling dominoes, a third person may not control the dominoes but he knows where they will land and the dominoes have no choice over that.
    I personally see mental existence as non-linear. It's continuous process of evolution that can drift back and forth with ease, specially regarding memories, experiences, etc. Even If I'm less or more mature, the original observer is just sitting still through all of this.

    The sun may set and the night may come and we name it a new night and a new day, but it's still the same sun and the same moon. Existence as we know it is cyclical, not linear.

    Therefore when we abandon linear concepts of space and time, here, there, past, future, God is just experimenting the whole of this constant transformation because he's the base of everything.

    The future and the past can be known by him, because he transcends it. It's all the same. In these terms we need to start referring to creation as a lila or a dance. We are God's way of perceiving himself.
    Last edited by Adhvagat; 16 August 2011 at 10:44 AM.

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    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    Quote Originally Posted by prabhupad fan View Post
    I'm saying if he knows perfectly what I will do, then I cannot do otherwise (unless Krishna is wrong), hence no free will. if I choose between orange juice or apple juice, and Krishna knows I'll choose orange, then I can never choose apple juice here.
    Yes, it is a paradox, isnt it? I see one of two ways out:

    (1)If God knows the future accurately, free will is an illusion.

    (2)If God's omniscience is defined as God knowing past and present, then we have free will.

    I would like to think of God's omniscience as that of type (2).

    How do YOU like to define omniscience?

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    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    If we look at it from the Advaitic perspective, it's not actually all that confusing or logically inconsistent. As we know Krishna to be the complete, eternal and omnipotent Self residing in all, we know already that we cannot separate the individual jiva from God. If we consolidate jiva and Atman together, then there is no need to question which rules out in the end ultimately: God or man's free choice?. If one subscribes that God is bound by time then of course, this is another matter because then it calls into question His omniscience, which is inextricably bound to His omnipotence. Simply, as put by Pietro:

    We are God's way of perceiving himself.

    Om namah Shivaya
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become your character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

    ॐ गं गणपतये नमः
    Om Gam Ganapataye namah

    लोकाः समस्ताः सुखिनो भवन्तु ।
    Lokaah SamastaaH Sukhino Bhavantu

  7. #17

    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    My own "pet theory" if you will on this point is that, in the end, God's free will is our own will. There is only one Will, and that is the will of God. The ego or individual I has no free will except by a "participation" in the greater freedom/free will of God.

    It's like this: let's say you have a tricycle and a bunch of mouse-traps. God is all-knowledgeable and all-free, so he can maneuver with his big wheel through all the mousetraps and not fall into illusion. But, the back wheels are like us, and even though our freedom is as it were synchronous with God's, we continue to hit the mouse-traps, because, well, that's just where our choices take us.

    How can I put this in a sentence? Try next time.

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    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    Quote Originally Posted by prabhupad fan View Post
    How are they both logically consistent?

    Thanks.
    The only way this can be "logically" (which still implies reasoning through an imperfect mechanism; the mind) reconciled is that free-will in and of itself is illusory; it only exists as long as the ahaMkArA (ego) exists.

    Sri Ramana Maharishi has stated this quite clearly; that as long as one is stuck in samsArA (cycle of birth and death), one has free-will but once one becomes enlightened (attains muktI), one realizes there is no such thing as "free-will".

    Although that statement seems contradictory, if you think of it in terms of Advaita, it makes perfect sense. How can something (us) that is a part of something else (Brahman), be independent of that (Tat)? It is the illusion or MAyA of independence that gives rise to the notion of "free-will", which itself arises from the false ahaMkArA (ego).

  9. #19
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    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?


    This is my understanding:

    The theory of Karma has to be taken in to account while explaining the future of a individual.

    For an individual his Accumulated karma(Fate) decides certain broad parameters regarding what he/she will be; while leaving certain things Open to results of his own future karma (actions).

    Since it is God who setup the Karmic system he leaves certain things Open meaning NOT everything is predetermined.

    Since NOT everything is
    predetermined the omniscience of God doesn't apply here, since he chose NOT to know it or FIX it.

    Also there are certain requirements in crossing the Karmic barrier and reach the destination(
    BG 7.28).




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    Re: Free will vs Krishna's omnipotence?

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté

    Quote Originally Posted by proudhindu View Post
    This is my understanding:
    Since NOT everything is predetermined the omniscience of God doesn't apply here, since he chose NOT to know it or FIX it.
    I find this interesting, yet impossible for me to grasp. Not to know is a deficiency and hence not an option. Not even a blade of grass moves without His knowing.

    So then what would be a plausible condition for this whole universe to unfold and all one's actions to fit in with a level of free selection ?

    I will leave my opinons for another post.

    praṇām

    यतसà¥à¤¤à¥à¤µà¤‚ शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṠśivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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