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Thread: Nostalgia versus faith

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    Nostalgia versus faith

    Vannakkam: I remember my mother used to refer to 'the old country' . She had never been to England, but her parents had immigrated and found pioneer agricultural life in Canada to be tough. For sanity and comfort reasons, thoughts would return to the old country of England. Fondly reminiscing of olden days in their youth brought comfort. They passed it on to my mother, in words, and ideas. Even some of her favorite flowers were right out of England. (Maltese Cross, or red sumthin or uther was one of them) http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=Maltes...1t:429,r:1,s:0

    My mother-in-law, a supposed Christian, readily admitted her lack of belief in the Bible, yet she continued to attend church, visit with the people, just enjoy Sundays. It was the same principle. Although her parents did believe in the Bible, and read it daily after supper, she simply didn't. but she went back to those same childhood memories simply for the same reasons of my mother. It brought a certain comfort level, this remembering of happier days.

    So recently through discussions and observations, I have seen the same principle with some of the born Hindus who have immigrated to the west. The Christian education, the striving for material wealth, western ideas and more has knocked the actual belief in God right out of them. The only reason these folks come to temple is nostalgia. It gives them comfort. It brings back memories of going to temple with family and playing with friends in their childhoods. In other words, its the comfort of culture. Food, sounds, a chance to speak the mother tongue. Its not actually belief in Gods at all.

    Now, I'm certainly not talking about all of my friends, just some. But the question is: "What can we do to turn this around, if at all?"

    Has anyone else observed the same thing, or am I out to lunch?

    Aum Namasivaya
    Last edited by Eastern Mind; 13 August 2011 at 09:08 PM.

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Namaste, EM, I always enjoy your thoughtful posts.

    What comes to my mind is the English word for people who go to church on a shallow level--- "hypocrites". To me, what is going on at this level is a social order, more than worship or devotion...that being said, the people who are "hypocrites" generally do not know that they are hypocrites and they are probably gaining something from attendance, though that something might not reach a level of consciousness for many years.

    I recently saw an old Charlie Chaplin film which the background music was an old Christian hymn, "Revive Us Again". When I heard those strains it had the odd effect on me of sublime mantra, a message, if you will. I had not thought of that hymn for many, many years.

    Also, I've been wanting to tell you about the closest Hindu Temple to me (120 miles away). I once went out of my way to go to the temple, having never been to one before, and I saw when I drove into the parking lot that there was a Hindu wedding going on and I felt it was a social event and therefore I did not stop, and never yet have made it to a Hindu Temple.

    Perhaps in the West, these social events are taking place at the temples (?) and thereby something else is occurring that was never meant for worship. Perhaps the temples are becoming a social gathering place, a convention center, like a church can be.

    Just my take...I've only been to one Hindu Temple and never made it out of my car as I wasn't invited to the wedding.
    Last edited by RosemaryOs; 13 August 2011 at 11:13 AM. Reason: Clarification

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Has anyone else observed the same thing, or am I out to lunch?
    Namaste

    A very astute observation indeed!

    Most of the mandirs that I have visited here, have a prasadam meal after their weekly puja program. Many a 'devotees' show up towards to the tail end of the entire puja; their aim being to socialize/to connect with their own kind (or with the memories of their youth), and to get a free meal. I am at a loss to suggest as to how to change their behavior. There could be a number of reasons for their lack of faith, or at least a show of it through attending the entire puja. One that comes to mind is the transgressions of many pujaris, for whom conducting various ceremonies is just a 'vocation', and who behave and act like most of us outside the confines of the mandir - make/hoard more money, indulge in thoughts/deeds associated with less divine souls. To common practitioners, the messenger is more, or at least as important as the message itself; and a less than devout messenger (pujari) is a deal breaker.

    Many people have their own interpretation of Hinduism - God is everywhere - so, why go to the temple every day/week. Among common folks, the need for/acceptance of, and dedication to the higher power is tied to their needs/desires and the degree of their distress level. Their relationship with God is purely petitionery in nature. When they are merrily rolling along in life with enough material comforts, the Lord takes a back seat and being in situations that give them a feeling of warmth through reliving the nostalgic period of their youth takes center stage.

    Having said all that, I would rather have more people who would be on the fringes of Hinduism and observe/share some of the rituals/thoughts/way of life, than those who would have none of it; or worse yet, who would go out and embrace something less holy than Hinduism.

    Perhaps other people have their own observations to share?

    Pranam.
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    Last edited by Believer; 15 August 2011 at 01:23 PM.

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Having said all that, I would rather have more people who would be on the fringes of Hinduism and observe/share some of the rituals/thoughts/way of life, than those who would have none of it; or worse yet, who would go out and embrace something less holy than Hinduism.

    -
    Vannakkam Believer: Yes, I absolutely agree with this. Better at the temple socialising than being hung over at home, or attending a Christian Church being indoctrinated by another faith. You're certainly going to take longer to 'come home' from those places than from the temple. Yes, I have seen changes too. Real changes such as going back to the vegetarianism of childhood. There are inspiring stories within it.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Quote Originally Posted by RosemaryOs View Post
    I recently saw an old Charlie Chaplin film which the background music was an old Christian hymn, "Revive Us Again". When I heard those strains it had the odd effect on me of sublime mantra, a message, if you will. I had not thought of that hymn for many, many years.

    Also, I've been wanting to tell you about the closest Hindu Temple to me (120 miles away). I once went out of my way to go to the temple, having never been to one before, and I saw when I drove into the parking lot that there was a Hindu wedding going on and I felt it was a social event and therefore I did not stop, and never yet have made it to a Hindu Temple.

    Perhaps in the West, these social events are taking place at the temples (?) and thereby something else is occurring that was never meant for worship. Perhaps the temples are becoming a social gathering place, a convention center, like a church can be.

    Just my take...I've only been to one Hindu Temple and never made it out of my car as I wasn't invited to the wedding.
    Vannakkam: Childhood memory is really comforting. When I was stressed out, I found great therapy in childhood memories. No stress of family, someone taking care of you, just hanging out with siblings at the river, building treehouses, so much fun. But that's there as a backup plan when you forget God, and need anything to hang onto to keep your sanity. In a way it is His gift.

    In India (at least in the little corner I know) weddings are not held at temples. They rent huge halls for the purpose, and the priest goes there instead. Here in the west some temples serve dual purpose, but many don't as well. For example the Ganesha temple in Utah has an Indian Cultural center in a separate building, but on the same site. Then you can tell.

    But still there probably would have been no problem with you going in. Temples are like that. They can't normally be closed down for private functions, because God doesn't want it that way. Its His house and all are welcome. You probably would have received an impromptu invite to the wedding.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Namaste.

    Don't forget the "but that's what we've always done" mentality. Especially as the generations proceed. Holidays and festivals may be carried on and celebrated, without having a clue as to why, except that they're fun.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern Mind View Post
    Better at the temple socialising than being hung over at home
    Without a doubt. At least if attending temple is only a social function, at least there's the chance of something positive happening, i.e. returning to the faith.
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    EM, I don't think this an imagined problem on your part. For most of my life I've been religious but not spiritual. Nostalgia probably plays a role, but for me it familiarity more than anything. Don't tell the atheists I said this, but it really is a bit difficult, intellectually speaking, to be a scientist and believe in God. Often I stand back from everything I know about the universe, and wonder how any supernatural force could really be at work. I'd say that for most of my life I've gone to temples and done pujas simply because that's what I've always done. So why do anything differently? Whatever atheistic mindset I may have had, secular life has never appealed to me. So if I'm going to play at religion, why not pick the one I've always followed?

    At the end of the day, I initially chose to believe in God not because of some incisive philosophical argument, but because a world without God seems to frivolous to be worth living in. Doubtless the atheist would refer to me as using religion as a crutch, but I think I could say precisely the same of his belief in naturalism.

    For me the pathway to taking Hinduism seriously was more an outgrowth of being religious in the absence of genuine belief. I've never had any profound spiritual experience, but I know enough people who do that Hindu spiritualism can't simply be discounted. There is wisdom to be had in Hinduism, but I see that it requires diligence and practice. I consider the effort to be worth it, which is why I now consider myself a somewhat more serious Hindu. This is not to say that there aren't days when routine is my only motivation for prayer or reciting a mantra, but I can say that I do genuinely believe Hindu teachings to be true.

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Vannakkam: Yes, Sanjaya, you and others aren't of the ilk I was referring to. Its also good to know you support the premise. I never know how far out my ideas are.

    I do think in a way the Ganesha Milk miracle was Him saying, "Hey, look, I am real." I know here that event certainly brought a few doubters back. But the real doubters (scientists, atheists etc.) witnessed it with their own eyes and still said it was some sort of conjured magic or some 'capillary action' of some sort, even though such 'capillary action' ended quite abruptly.

    Since I believed in Him in the first place, and felt that was the main message there, I just didn't feel the need to go and witness it at all. But the problem, as you said, isn't just at temple. Its more just going through the motions, like you said. Teenagers (in the west) don't see the need for an education until something really sticks out at them like a friend getting paid twice a much. That's real concret evidence. So things like prayer, or doing japa to feel more inner isn't all that convincing unless you see results.

    I also think it really helps to have devotees in a community who do set an example. Someone who sits in a corner silently meditating, or doing japa, or even like me, coming in traditional dress. That must occasionally bring the thought, "There must be more to this than I'm getting."

    Of course my particular community was heavily heavily influenced by the Catholic Church, and many don't see it.

    Aum Namasivaya

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    Re: Nostalgia versus faith

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjaya View Post
    ........it really is a bit difficult, intellectually speaking, to be a scientist and believe in God.
    Namaste,

    In my youth, I too found myself in the same predicament and struggled for quite some time to reconcile the two. With time and maturity, I found that the two are entirely different entities with two different paths. One is lab based 'show me' else it is not true; and the other is faith based with the vision of the Lord reserved for devotees with unwavering devotion who make substantial progress on the spiritual path. One is matter based and the other is spirit based.

    I often find the two groups - religionists and scientists - attacking each other to show their superiority, and to lay their claim as being the sole guardians of the human mind. It does not have to be that way. The two have entirely different starting points, different paths and different goals. The reach of science starts from the tip of your nose and extends only as far as your eye can see, whereas the reach of spiritualism starts where you stop to see with your eye and extends to infinity. Science exists for the comfort of the human body; religion exists for the comfort of the soul. We need both to survive. If the temple (human body) itself is in distress, it would be difficult to focus on our sadhana. We need science to keep it well so that the mind can then grapple with the more intricate aspects of things beyond our physical vision.

    Understanding/believing that religion/spirituality and science are not mutually exclusive is a major stumbling block for scientists. Until one sees and believes in his heart for that to be true, the practice of religion remains at the 'observance of rituals' level. With no faith, going to the temple is just another social event or a satiation of needs arising out of nostalgia.

    Pranam.
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    Last edited by Believer; 15 August 2011 at 01:18 PM.

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