Were Dalits really discriminated by Brahmins as many claim

[The Occult]

. The funny part is even AFTER converting to Islam/Xity some of these converts still hold onto their past castes! Why else would people be called as "Dalit Christians"? Are there "Brahmin Christians"? I am sure there are

Yeah, exactly,they called themselves Dalit Christians so that they can ask for reservation on the basis that they are "Dalit".It looks like it can happen only in India that way.

Xity and Islam have nothing that can even be called as philosophy/metaphysics. Buddhism does but it suffers from fundamental holes [momentariness, Sunyata, cause-effect relationship, etc.] which were exploited by Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhavacharya to reassert the Vedic tradition.

Obviously, how can going to heaven or hell, living in a paradise,enjoying,experiencing pleasures be considered "Spiritual".Its like another vacation resort even though its not in this material world.What difference it makes?.I heard a X-ian saying in a talk show about Having a craze for jewellery.She said that "I dont want gold because in Heaven I'm going to have all these and compared to what I have in heaven,this is nothing"..... You might as well have those pleasures in this material world itself,why do you have to go to place after death to see the same olf things that you have seen in this physical world?

Spirituality is supposed to give you a peace of mind,not happiness or pleasures.Ultimately, what matters is peace of mind and that's the essence of our philosophy.Anyone who follows this be it an atheist or agnostic or a theist ,no matter whether he/she has read Vedanta or not, has grasped the essence of the message.

[Mana]

Namasté

To my mind varNa is an observation (look at the Sanskrit translations) of a shape that occurs naturally over time within the growth of Dharma. In English history this is observed in the tradition of the second or family name reflecting ones trade or status.

I believe this stems originally from the observation of the growth of tribes.

This varNa builds up over time, like the growth of a tree. But eventually it becomes unstable. See Bhagavad Gita 1, 38-46

This is a cycle that's been observed for thousands of years. It may well have been more apparent in the past.

Well that's my take on this anyhow.

Pranam

Mana

[Believer]

The discrimination or mistreatment happens at many levels. There are layers of stratification of the Indian society. White collar workers look down upon the blue collar workers, and the professionals don't want to associate with plain old white collar workers, and many officers in the armed forces consider the 'civilians' to be non-disciplined and would not want their daughters marrying one; and everyone disdains the lowly janitors/shoe-lace-retippers/butchers. So, Brahmins did/do not have a monopoly on mistreating the dalits. The social structure consists of 'groups' of people based on their intellect/profession/looks/money making ability, and all vie for prominence. With concerted effort to eradicate the lines of separation through quota system and dalits capturing some prominent political power positions, things are changing, but that does not stop a white collar dalit from mistreating a janitorial type of dalit. It is the nature of humans to create groups/classes based on different criteria and to attach value to each group. This is not in any way an idea propagated in India only; it is done all over the world albeit without the varna labels.

Getting back to the main topic, the level of respect one gets from his fellow beings depends on his station in life. Brahmins were/are not the only ones mistreating the dalits. Britishers had nothing to do with this phenomenon. Hinduism teaches respect for humans of all trades, and for that matter respect for all kinds of life. But the actual practice of principles leaves a lot to be desired. And that is true with everyone, not just the Brahmins. On any given day, most of us feel either like a pigeon or like a statue. But for people at the bottom rung of the ladder, every day is like being a statue.

[Eastern Mind]

On any given day, most of us feel either like a pigeon or like a statue. But for people at the bottom rung of the ladder, every day is like being a statue.

Vannakkam Believer: Nice summary. First time I heard this metaphor. The similar one I heard was: Sometimes I feel like a dog; sometimes I feel like the fire hydrant.

Let us not forget that nowadays, Brahmins also take abuse. Over here in North America, for example, some of the temples pay their priests a pittance compared to similar professions. Some even have policies encouraging devotees to not give dakshina. So you are absolutely right. it comes and goes on all levels. Until we are truly able to see God in all beings, this will continue.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Namasté

To my mind varNa is an observation (look at the Sanskrit translations) of a shape that occurs naturally over time within the growth of Dharma. In English history this is observed in the tradition of the second or family name reflecting ones trade or status.

I believe this stems originally from the observation of the growth of tribes.

This varNa builds up over time, like the growth of a tree. But eventually it becomes unstable. See Bhagavad Gita 1, 38-46

This is a cycle that's been observed for thousands of years. It may well have been more apparent in the past.

Well that's my take on this anyhow.

Pranam

Mana

I've always thought the same thing. It's consistent with most of what I read in the Gita, however in the passage you cited Arjuna seems to lament at the mixing of castes as a result of adharma. Do you believe that Arjuna is expressing an incorrect opinion here?

[The Occult]

Getting back to the main topic, the level of respect one gets from his fellow beings depends on his station in life. Brahmins were/are not the only ones mistreating the dalits. Britishers had nothing to do with this phenomenon. Hinduism teaches respect for humans of all trades, and for that matter respect for all kinds of life. But the actual practice of principles leaves a lot to be desired. And that is true with everyone, not just the Brahmins. On any given day, most of us feel either like a pigeon or like a statue. But for people at the bottom rung of the ladder, every day is like being a statue.

Yeah, I agree with you on that point that there might have been a discrimination but that is not something that was done only by brahmins.At this point, I must say that there is a still a lot of caste based bloodshed going on in villages,just to show which caste is superior.These things have nothing to do with Brahmins.Coming to the main point, so yes, there must have been some discrimination but maybe it was not a big issue of concern.This was where Britishers have a role to play,I must say, they made a mountain of a mole to use it to create differences and invade our country

[Mana]

I've always thought the same thing. It's consistent with most of what I read in the Gita, however in the passage you cited Arjuna seems to lament at the mixing of castes as a result of adharma. Do you believe that Arjuna is expressing an incorrect opinion here?

Namasté

To my mind Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of society and thus the loss of the structure, the distinct paths that were the varNa at that time, this IS Adharma; the very reason Krishna is manifest.

Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of the spiritual form which has grown over many generations.

Whilst these structures exist there is stability and peace in society. When they break into turmoil, for whatever reason; there is an onset of competition. Competition for rank and status.

There exists a socio/biological dynamic which comes into play in these times of stress which triggers aggression and dominance. (This is observable today within the human genome).

This competition can be likened to the behaviour of other primates and pack animals. If we look for example, to the behaviour of Gorillas at the time of the replacement of the Alpha male, we see a similar effect.

A bit like nature reshuffling the deck.

No tree lasts for ever.

Pranam

Mana

[Believer]

The similar one I heard was: Sometimes I feel like a dog; sometimes I feel like the fire hydrant.

A fire hydrant does not get the full brunt of abuse as a statue does.

[Eastern Mind]

A fire hydrant does not get the full brunt of abuse as a statue does.

Vannakkam: All depends on the size of the dog, and how much he drank for breakfast.

One fine unsuspecting day I was walking merrily along this sandy palm-lined beach where there were many seagulls ... now that's more full of karmic abuse ... human hair collects better than a statue.

Aum Namasivaya

[sanjaya]

Namasté

To my mind Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of society and thus the loss of the structure, the distinct paths that were the varNa at that time, this IS Adharma; the very reason Krishna is manifest.

Arjuna is lamenting the collapse of the spiritual form which has grown over many generations.

Whilst these structures exist there is stability and peace in society. When they break into turmoil, for whatever reason; there is an onset of competition. Competition for rank and status.

There exists a socio/biological dynamic which comes into play in these times of stress which triggers aggression and dominance. (This is observable today within the human genome).

This competition can be likened to the behaviour of other primates and pack animals. If we look for example, to the behaviour of Gorillas at the time of the replacement of the Alpha male, we see a similar effect.

A bit like nature reshuffling the deck.

No tree lasts for ever.

Pranam

Mana

Thank you for explaining. If I may inquire a bit further: this explanation makes sense except for verse 41, which specifies the intermingling of castes. Does this refer to something other than marriages between people of different castes?