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Thread: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

  1. #1

    Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    I came across an interesting video on the aspect of free will

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE

    Also read an article in wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

    According to the results of the tests conducted,most of our "conscious" actions are done unconsciously even before the conscious actually gets involved.Some tests were astonishing because the experimenter was able to tell 6 seconds before the subject even knew that he made a decision by looking at his brain and the neural pathways

    Its not only shocking but kind of disturbing to know that we're not actually responsible for some of our actions

    However one good thing whats told in the article is that the tests done were not totally conclusive and no consensus have been reached in this.Also it does not deny the role of conscious mind which gets involved in deicision making.It just suggests that our conscious actions dont "start" consciously but there is already a unconscious preparation before the conscious gets involved

    It sounds like a kind of determinism and I find it difficult to accept this idea

    If that's the case, then as per Vedanta, we're supposed to be all pervading Consciousness .But if we're not our decision makers then what role do we play in shaping karma ?...or are we(consciousness) just a part of some neural activity of the brain which accompanies the decisions taken by the brain

    How can the concept of Self(Brahman or Atma) be explained within this framework?

  2. #2

    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by The Occult View Post
    Its not only shocking but kind of disturbing to know that we're not actually responsible for some of our actions
    Why disturbing? Yes its disturbing and discouraging for all the religious hawks and moralists who loose no occasion to remind people of dire consequences of not following recommended laws of an outdated book, of not filling sinful all the time or not being full with self-pity.

    Karma is not solely what we do consciously but mainly what we accumulate unconsciously. It is exactly because of this reason we are bound by them. If we were indeed aware of everything, can they result in bondage really? Our present life exhibits hidden desires we have accumulated for many lives.

    It only points what spiritualists have been telling all-along, that our consciousness is far bigger than what we are presently aware/conscious of, and the whole point of spiritual practices, meditation, so & so forth is to expand the scope of our awareness.

    I cannot say it is any more discouraging than the basic human condition which is suffering.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  3. #3

    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    Why disturbing? Yes its disturbing and discouraging for all the religious hawks and moralists who loose no occasion to remind people of dire consequences of not following recommended laws of an outdated book, of not filling sinful all the time or not being full with self-pity.

    Karma is not solely what we do consciously but mainly what we accumulate unconsciously. It is exactly because of this reason we are bound by them. If we were indeed aware of everything, can they result in bondage really? Our present life exhibits hidden desires we have accumulated for many lives.

    It only points what spiritualists have been telling all-along, that our consciousness is far bigger than what we are presently aware/conscious of, and the whole point of spiritual practices, meditation, so & so forth is to expand the scope of our awareness.

    I cannot say it is any more discouraging than the basic human condition which is suffering.
    Hmm....First when I read it, it gave me an impression that you were an atheist and I felt "Ah I'm going to get blasted" but then it gave me a surprise relief when you were speaking for the spiritualists

    On one hand you have criticized religious hawks and on the other you have supported spiritualists.So you're basically of the opinion that being religious and being spiritual are two different things, right?

  4. #4

    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Namasté Occult

    Dependant upon your level of awareness you will be more or less concious as to the extent to which your subconscious mind affects your thought, actions and speech.

    There are some who spend there entire lives acting on behalf of their sexual organs and stomach. At every point in time convinced that they are acting of their own free will. Oblivious to the influences about them and within them.

    Once we realise the full extent of our wild nature we can then first Yolk and then harness these senses.

    Pranam

    Mana

  5. #5

    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by The Occult View Post
    So you're basically of the opinion that being religious and being spiritual are two different things, right?
    I did not want to jump into the new age "Spiritual but not religious" bandwagon - but there is little else as consolation.

    As an Indian I want the cultural aspect of Sanatana Dharma also to be preserved and propagated, but without dogmatism and prejudice.

    But do understand, it is precisely because of the unconscious, semi-conscious nature of our doings that we accumulate karma.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  6. #6

    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Mana View Post
    Namasté Occult

    Dependant upon your level of awareness you will be more or less concious as to the extent to which your subconscious mind affects your thought, actions and speech.

    There are some who spend there entire lives acting on behalf of their sexual organs and stomach. At every point in time convinced that they are acting of their own free will. Oblivious to the influences about them and within them.

    Once we realise the full extent of our wild nature we can then first Yolk and then harness these senses.

    Pranam

    Mana

    Hmm....nice point , I was also thinking on the same line.No matter how much our subconscious minds initiate action, there is some difference between a conscious action and a mere reflex action.Whether we are responsible or not, there is an influence which is where there is the concept of control.So in that way free will seems to exist

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    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    I did not want to jump into the new age "Spiritual but not religious" bandwagon - but there is little else as consolation.

    As an Indian I want the cultural aspect of Sanatana Dharma also to be preserved and propagated, but without dogmatism and prejudice.

    But do understand, it is precisely because of the unconscious, semi-conscious nature of our doings that we accumulate karma.
    SM, great posts!

    I asked you the other thread regarding your view on Hinduism as a religion, but I'll just link to this thread. Thank you.

    I'll also chase a quote that Jung discuss unconsciousness as a "sin" in the meaning that our own unconsciousness is due to our own lack of responsibility towards self-discovery. And as we all know, the more we are unconscious the more we make projections and carry on our lives practicing numerous unskilled actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Occult View Post
    It sounds like a kind of determinism and I find it difficult to accept this idea

    If that's the case, then as per Vedanta, we're supposed to be all pervading Consciousness .But if we're not our decision makers then what role do we play in shaping karma ?...or are we(consciousness) just a part of some neural activity of the brain which accompanies the decisions taken by the brain

    How can the concept of Self(Brahman or Atma) be explained within this framework?
    The Occult, when you say WE, are you referring to the conscious unilateral ego? What we judge acceptable and unnaceptable to daily life? Is that our true nature? Is that really US?

    Even psychology doesn't consider this our true entire self, imagine the spiritual and philosophical lines of Hinduism.

    If we guide ourselves with the framework of Analytical Psychology, it is the deep unconscious that directly influences the conscious mind. In the framework of Hinduism, it is our pasts lives, that if we carefully look at both, are one the same. Unconscious (specially the collective) being the whole of human experience from which our conscious minds come and our pasts lives being the creator of samskaras and therefore functioning the same way. Sorry if it's a little confusing.

    If our conscious mind (mana/ahamkara - mind/ego) is actually the product of a deeper source (brahman - collective unconscious, with the necessary approximations), this observation doesn't go against what is described in the Vedas and Hinduism in general.
    Last edited by Adhvagat; 22 August 2011 at 11:43 AM.

  8. #8

    Smile Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    SM, great posts!


    The Occult, when you say WE, are you referring to the conscious unilateral ego? What we judge acceptable and unnaceptable to daily life? Is that our true nature? Is that really US?

    Even psychology doesn't consider this our true entire self, imagine the spiritual and philosophical lines of Hinduism.
    LOL, I guess there is a little difference in what the westerners consider as "Consciousness" and what is told by our Hinduism.When they talk consciousness they about "I".So I guess they're making references to dualism and mind body problem.But even there they have made some distinctions in Consciousness.I'm not sure if that's the same thing in Hinduism.As per the article in wikipedia on consciousness:
    "Ned Block proposed a distinction between two types of consciousness that he called phenomenal (P-consciousness) and access (A-consciousness). P-consciousness, according to Block, is simply raw experience: it is moving, colored forms, sounds, sensations, emotions and feelings with our bodies and responses at the center. These experiences, considered independently of any impact on behavior, are called qualia. A-consciousness, on the other hand, is the phenomenon whereby information in our minds is accessible for verbal report, reasoning, and the control of behavior"


    According to Chalmers, he feels that neurosciences may be able to answer the questions of A-consciousness(which according to him may take about 100-200 years) but the question of qualia may not be answered with that approach

    Is qualia and Brahman the same thing?.....I'm not sure if Qualia and Brahman can be considered the same thing.If it isnt then .....lol...they can never even get anywhere close to even forming an explanation

    I've actually made a different thread on the aspect of consciousness, would like to hear your thoughts on that

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    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    If a Westerner considers solely the ego complex as consciousness then they're ignoring 100 years of works in the field of psychology from westerners themselves. Pierre Janet himself observed the consciousness is very fragmented and fragmentable, so why consider it a solid unit, not to mention a biological solid unit, it has no basis for that.

    Something is very wrong and I suspect that neuroscience is actually doing a disservice to understanding consciousness if it sets itself to completely explaining it, however it's an interesting tool to observe the mechanics of the biological basis of consciousness, but to reduce itself to the mechanical observations is the mistake to be avoided. IMO psychology is doing a much better job at exploring consciousness through scientific means.

    It's hard to equate Brahman to any western concept, that's why I said "with the necessary approximations". Brahman is a very subtle concept to be related to something finite and biological. The concept of collective unconscious as expounded by Jung is a much closer concept because it's like a reservoir of all experiences from which the personal unconscious and therefore the ego emerge.

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    Re: Free Will, Determinism and Role of Consciousness

    Hello The Occult,



    I came across an interesting video on the aspect of free will

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3AiOS4nCE

    I've seen this whole documentary, it's very interesting.

    According to the results of the tests conducted,most of our "conscious" actions are done unconsciously even before the conscious actually gets involved.Some tests were astonishing because the experimenter was able to tell 6 seconds before the subject even knew that he made a decision by looking at his brain and the neural pathways

    Its not only shocking but kind of disturbing to know that we're not actually responsible for some of our actions

    However one good thing whats told in the article is that the tests done were not totally conclusive and no consensus have been reached in this.Also it does not deny the role of conscious mind which gets involved in deicision making.It just suggests that our conscious actions dont "start" consciously but there is already a unconscious preparation before the conscious gets involved

    It sounds like a kind of determinism and I find it difficult to accept this idea

    If that's the case, then as per Vedanta, we're supposed to be all pervading Consciousness .But if we're not our decision makers then what role do we play in shaping karma ?...or are we(consciousness) just a part of some neural activity of the brain which accompanies the decisions taken by the brain

    How can the concept of Self(Brahman or Atma) be explained within this framework?
    All of this actually supports the position of (Advaita) Vedanta.

    The reason is, is because in Advaita the mind is not really conscious, but appears conscious when there is a reflection of the Self in it. The reflection of the Self in the mind makes it seem as if the mind itself is conscious, which in turn creates an impression that there is a distinct agent or experiencer that owns, controls, or is identified with the mind. These tests undermine that idea, and in so doing support the Vedanta in its assertions that the Self does not perform actions, and is different from the mind.

    One who believes he acts and makes decisions has superimposed the qualities of the body and the mind onto himself- he has confused himself with objects within consciousness. This identification is false, as the tests of the scientists are starting to reveal.

    '"The life force [prana] and the mind are operating [of their own accord], but the mind will tempt you to believe that it is "you". Therefore understand always that you are the timeless spaceless witness. And even if the mind tells you that you are the one who is acting, don't believe the mind. [...] The apparatus [mind, body] which is functioning has come upon your original essence, but you are not that apparatus."
    - Nisargadatta Maharaj.




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