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Thread: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

  1. #11
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    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    I believe having the courage to stay away from religion and rather accept the vacuum as an atheist and agnostic is many times better, courageous more human solution than knocking on the doors of world religions. Such people are more advanced people than religious persons as they are already able to find happiness within themselves.
    I have to differ with you here. Do you have any evidence to suggest that atheists/agnostics are "more advanced" and are more "able to find happiness within themselves" than theists? Could you suitably define these phrases?

    Dvaitins/Visishtadvaitins consider Advaitins atheists. All of the former consider Samkhya atheist. All of the former consider Buddhism to be atheist. All of the former consider Charvakas to be atheists. So, if you could, also define the term "atheism" and which "atheist" you are referring to.

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    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritualseeker View Post
    Not an exciting story, but I am very grateful that I have left Islam. I sometimes think negatively of those times, but my wife tells me everything happens for a reason.
    Dear SS,

    It surprises me that you are able to leave Islam. Muslims don't allow any person to leave their faith. The punishment can even be death and it is permitted in Q'uran if I am not wrong!

    You have had a great and exciting journey and many people can learn from your experience.

    Namaste SM78,

    Have patience and not be judgmental on virtues of atheism and defects in theism. You still have a long way to go to realise what spirituality has in store for you.

    The best and commendable part is that you are thirsty for the Truth and it is auspicious. Have a little patience and Truth will slowly uncover its veil for you, I am sure.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  3. #13
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    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Namaste all,

    Devotee thank you for your response. Apostasy is very grave in Islam as you mention the Qur'an does permit execution of apostates. If you want to hear what Muhammad has to say about it you could open Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih al-Muslim (Other hadith also contain this message) in which Apostasy is remedied with execution. Sometimes the apostate has 3 days to 'repent'. Surely if I lived in an Islamic state I might claim to be a born again Muslim before the end of the 3 days lol. I had friends become very angry over my leaving Islam. A particular Imam at a masjid was kind hearted. I feel that the reason he was laxed is because he has had problems in the past with his faith and his father was also a Sufi so he was less violently inclined. Still there are those that would love to harm over faith. I do not mention too much in person to people that I was muslim due to the fact that it could bring harm upon me. It is too bad really that a religion that is supposedly the highest truth is so afraid that it orders execution of apostates. This seems like just a religion of control and fear, much like the rulership of many dictators of the world (including the United States). May Lord Shiva liberate all of us from the bondage of thought.

    Om Namah Shivaya

  4. #14

    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    I have to differ with you here. Do you have any evidence to suggest that atheists/agnostics are "more advanced" and are more "able to find happiness within themselves" than theists? Could you suitably define these phrases?
    It is purely from my own assessment having met many people in this 30+ years of existence. But what proof do you need that is already not self evident? All the wars and violence in name of religion is as old as the time when men invented religion and still continues at the same untiring momentum. Old bigots get replaced with a new generation of God crazy people.

    As I said, being able to be happy with oneself is by itself a great proof. Let me define happy by being able to lead normal, healthy and mentally fit life.Being unconcerned with religious truths shows great maturity in being able to come to terms with the world on one's own terms. I don't need any better proof for my convictions.

    Ofcourse this excludes those people who have found another dogma (atheism) to take refuge in through denial of everything religious. Those people are in the same or worse boat than religionists in my mind. There cannot be too many non-dogmatic agnostics in my mind, and clearly they have to be much advanced than scores of devotion crazy crowd and their leaders.

    But truely, I can't prove this to you or anybody who does not accept great harm being done since dawn of human history in name of religion. It is not good for me to only blame Abrahamic religions for all ills and put an spotless picture for all others, since the issue is in the very foundation of need for religion - which is a deep seated human phobia for the unknown.

    And to note, my posts were not to pronounce a judgement on SpiritualSeeker and anybody else in this forum. Sorry if it came out such a way, but maybe it is unavoidable when I criticize religion in general and all most everybody here is religious in some sense.

    However, I still keep defining myself as Hindu and post here because for me Hinduism offers plenty & plenty of options outside formalized religion and a strict religious life.

    If one doesn't believe Truth to be a written word in an old book, but something to be experienced inside, I believe he/she is still a Hindu.

    If one doesn't believe that "religious" duties are there because some God or saint wanted us to perform those tasks or incur wrath, but rather view these duties and rituals as tools to experience the inside, I think he/she still remians Hindu.

    And if one believes that these rituals and processes remain open to be applied, evaluated and validated like any other scientific technology aliebit at an individual level, I think it still remains Hinduism.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  5. #15

    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste SM78,

    Have patience and not be judgmental on virtues of atheism and defects in theism. You still have a long way to go to realise what spirituality has in store for you.

    The best and commendable part is that you are thirsty for the Truth and it is auspicious. Have a little patience and Truth will slowly uncover its veil for you, I am sure.

    OM
    Thanks for your encouragement, but my concern is not about the fate of SM78, since it is highly immaterial for the world I am commenting on. My opposition is not on the outcome of formal religion to one own's salvation - but dangers to the society.

    Individual salvaltion is actually completely immaterial topic compared to general wellbeing of humanity, yet it has occupied nearly 100% of the time and energy of Indian mystics for last 1000 years. A bit of a shame, if you ask me.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

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    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    @sm78:

    I think the role of "religion" should just be twofold:

    (1)philosophy, and
    (2)spirituality.

    Eastern "religions" [Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism, etc.] score much higher on these fronts than Western religions.

    I do agree that religion leads to bloodshed. But I am unsure if wholesale naturalism/scientism is the solution. A better solution would be to strictly enforce separation of church/mosque/temple/synagogue/gurudwara and state. Who cares what the citizens of a country believe as long as they can cooperate in the public sphere regardless of what the other members may or may not believe?

    Hindu metaphysics and spirituality will endure. It is not without reason that books are still being written about Nyaya or Samkhya or Yoga or Advaita even today. To me, the 6 Hindu darshanas offer enough food for thought and contemplation for this life and possible a couple more [if I do not attain mukti this time around that is ] Reading the BG gives me a feeling of peace that is not intersubjectively verifiable but it is true to me nonetheless.

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    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    Individual salvaltion is actually completely immaterial topic compared to general wellbeing of humanity, yet it has occupied nearly 100% of the time and energy of Indian mystics for last 1000 years. A bit of a shame, if you ask me.
    Why do you automatically assume that individual salvation is at cross purposes with general wellbeing of humanity?

    Despite a belief in reincarnation/karma, do you find Indians any worse off than Pakistanis/Bangladeshis [who share the same culture/language, etc.] who believe in just this one life?

    Do you account for the material general wellbeing of the US/West/UK to their being non-mystical?

  8. #18

    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Quote Originally Posted by wundermonk View Post
    Why do you automatically assume that individual salvation is at cross purposes with general wellbeing of humanity?

    Despite a belief in reincarnation/karma, do you find Indians any worse off than Pakistanis/Bangladeshis [who share the same culture/language, etc.] who believe in just this one life?
    It is not at cross purpose, but simply being one-sided and ignoring the larger picture. It has more to do with Hindu's being always ruled by other's and thus completely missing the aspect which comes with having to rule and ensure collective well being of the society. But the foundation was laid even before the actual situation arrived. Mahabharata is as much full advice on social well being as it is on individual liberation. The later is a specific subtopic within the former. This perspective went missing from our culture sometime in the past.

    Do you account for the material general wellbeing of the US/West/UK to their being non-mystical?
    No, its simply because they understand governance, social wellfare and overall state craft much better than us. Its clearly a lack of knowledge on our part. Nothing to do with materialism or spiritualism. The gap can be filled up more completely from taking a spiritual point of view...but the fact is we are not even aware of the short comings in our thoughts in this regard.
    What is Here, is Elsewhere. What is not Here, is Nowhere.

  9. #19

    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    Namasté sm78

    Please excuse my speculation. I can"t help but wondering if your qualm is not with human nature its self? We can see as plain as day that theology has evolved along side human intelligence and wisdom its self. Theology which to my mind describes its very own nature from within, fully aware of the pitfalls, as it folds back on to its self repeatedly to propagate wisdom.

    Have you seen this?

    Is not the most dangerous belief on this planet today materialism? The unchecked selfish desires of the "Happy" top 5% consuming the very planet on which we live.

    If Materialism continues to ride this wave of belief in its self, unchecked. There will be nothing left. Take a look towards Venus; there are many stable states possible for our planets surface in the future, not all of them include liquid water.

    What else can relieve the wants and needs, of the 95% of this plant who suffer, for no reason other than geography. Do you think they care about holy war? Many have no water.

    Happiness is an illusory state which, more often than not depends upon the suffering of others. Yoga thus balance, is the only way.

    My sister is highly placed in the Western scientific community; from what I gather it mirrors exactly the human behaviour we see in organised Religion. Ask Hubble!

    How many on this planet have already died for Oil, under the guise of Religion?

    Sorry sm78, if my words seem at all heated; I am venting a little steam here. I fully respect and honour your posture.

    praNAms

    mana

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    Re: Zakir Naik: Inventing a Jagadguru

    namaste singhi,

    Quote Originally Posted by sm78 View Post
    I believe having the courage to stay away from religion and rather accept the vacuum as an atheist and agnostic is many times better, courageous more human solution than knocking on the doors of world religions.
    One can be agnostic and still be a hindu. Agnostic just means you haven't experienced 'that' yet.
    satay

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