Cosmic Ocean, Streams, Symbols...

[Sudarshan]

Some of my friends are approaching 50 and have not really experienced any grief to speak of, or at least not an unexpected grief. I notice a difference in them, a belief in tomorrow and security and stability that I have never been able to conjure up. But, one good thing about lots of tragedy is that although it is painful and I have had periods of downright disillusioned despondency, it makes you "suck the marrow from life" and press into the Divine. When all the world seems crazy, unstable and lonely, the Divine will come in and take your hand. I remember being little, and feeling that hand take mine. It was magical and I that is a benefit of driving pain.

When you find everything in life which you desire, why God? God created some misery so that man may not settle down with the limited earthly stuff and assume them to be the highest bliss. When the going gets rough, one will realize the futility of mundane existance and try to go up.

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~~

Namaste Yajvan,

Thanks for the thread and the post, Yajvan. I don’t disagree with your analysis actually. I think you’re right on. Symbolism, though, also exists at multiple levels. Atanu mentioned in the other thread about macrocosmic and microcosmic levels. I also accept the Devas as cosmic principles, but they’re also principles in the mind, within oneself, wouldn’t you agree? This goes back to idea of equating the individual with the universal, the pinda with the brahmanda, the vyasthi with the samasthi, Indra with the mind (lord of the senses), Agni with spark of individual consciousness, Brahma with mahat-buddhi or ahamkara, the fourteen chakras with the fourteen worlds of creation (7 lokas, 7 talas), etc.
A.

I thought to re-address this subject as we have given it an appropriate respite since discussing symbols and symbolism. For me I see it in my readings daily... and also, symbols are a fundamental offer of Jyotish prasna marga, so for me as a sisya of this great knowledge I am surrounded it by it daily.

Agnideva had suggested that symbols exists on multiple levels and I concur. One can view or interpret these symbols at the logical (nayyayika) level, the mythological ( and for satay reading this, I use this term as 'based upon or told as historical representation') or itihasika, symbols in ritual or yajnika, in cosmic and natural powers or adibhauta and finally with spiritual intent or adhyatma. So symbols [sanketa] are of great import to Sanatana dharma and is even called out in the Upanishads, that is ,how the devata wish to be addressed or represented . One offer for your consideration can be found on this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2049

So with this post, I thought to stimuate the conversation. If there is interest, I will post some of the sanketa/omens that are associated with Jyotish, in the Jyotish folder. That said, I found myself always looking for the omens and symbols and it caused some angst. Espcially with crows as in my area there are many, and one needs to consider - are they flying left-to-right, to or from you, etc. At a point it just proved unproductive to my well-being and I stopped.

One symbol that is quite sensitive and I will leave for another posting is purusha medha, or the human sarifice. Many a Indologist offers up this yajya as part of vedic ritual due to their inability to understand sanketa.
The HFH Post http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/sho...18&postcount=5 sets the stage for this, as the rishi Shunahshepah is the human that is suggested to have been offered. More on this in a separate post.

The 'Ground Floor' for your consideration
yajna ( pronounced yag-ya) - many see as a pure ritual and for the mimsmsaka ( one following pure ritual approach of Jaimini), yajya is external. Yet the inner adhyatma or spiritual orientation is the connection between the yajyamana ( the offer-er) and the devata. A conscious real connection for their support and our support - a symbiotic relationship.
It is said yajya is Visnu, yajya is done by yajya and yajya goes to yajya
( this is found in the Taittiriya Samhita and we find Krsna disucssing this in the Gita). This is the fundamental building block for the other sanketa that will be offered... So the goal of yajya? purnatva, or the perfection of the person to live and reflect the Divine in them.

Yet ya gotta ask yourself ( as I do all the time) why go though all the effort of sanketa/symbols - just tell me in simple words the wisdom you want me to learn.

It ( for me) takes much reading and reseach to get to the golden nuggets of wisdom; it takes one reading the offerings of the swami's, guru's, punditji to seperate the wheat from the shaft, just tell me the wisdom and I will drink deeply from the cup!

Well , as far as I can tell all the sanketa/symbols are used for multiple reasons. Some say for the protection of the wisdom that it will not be mis-used ( the example of Einstein's regret on E=MC²and the mischief it caused ); Others say it shows the sisya's focus and one-pointedness, bhakti to the knowledge to learn; Others say it is all about sound and form - many of the words/mantras used have a sound quality that was 'designed' for a specific effect on the sadhu, and it happened to be the vibrations found in these sanketa words. That is what I have read over the years and offer this to you for your pondering.

Words I thought would be of interest ( as will offer with a fresh post and reference this post to it ), let me know if these have interest and we can pursue; if no interest, that is okay too and I will pursue other ideas:

gau or cows
ashva or horses
ratha or chariots
amrta or elixir
yajamana or the human performer of the yajya
purohita or the priest performing
birds - we have discussed on several posts.
pasu - this is of great import as many assume offering an animal is the 'real thing' in the fire.
yupa or the fire alter
bhu-bhuvah-suva and svar + Maha - we have discussed a few times
ghrta or ghee ( my favorite)
Soma - we discussed
Agni - we discussed
Indra - we discussed
Varuna - we discussed
Visnu - we discussed
etc.


Any that wish to add and offer thier undertanding, increase the list, etc. are welcomed to participate.

pranams,

[Eastern Mind]

I absolutely adore Nataraja. It was my first encounter with such a wonderful symbol. 17 years old, Vancouver, Canada, in an Indian shop that sold a few murthis. Nataraja caught my eye, and I went over to pick it up, and just HAD to purchase it. It seemed the shop owner wasn't sure if he should sell it or not to me. He was Sikh. He looked at me curiously "You meditate on this?" I wasn't sure so I said "yes" in part to appease him and to make sure he would sell it to me, and in part it was my inner voice speaking. Not knowing much of meditation back then, I took the Nataraja home, and He lead me into meditation upon him. It was just so magnetic. I could just stare at it for hours on end. Now of course, 35 years later, He is even closer. The first time I saw one 'alive' in a temple, I just fell into prostration, because I could not stand up, He was so strong in vibration. Just sharing testimony here, hopefully not sounding like a braggart. (If you think I am, please just tell me to shut up.) Aum Namashivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

I absolutely adore Nataraja. It was my first encounter with such a wonderful symbol. 17 years old, Vancouver, Canada, in an Indian shop that sold a few murthis. Nataraja caught my eye, and I went over to pick it up, and just HAD to purchase it. It seemed the shop owner wasn't sure if he should sell it or not to me. He was Sikh. He looked at me curiously "You meditate on this?" I wasn't sure so I said "yes" in part to appease him and to make sure he would sell it to me, and in part it was my inner voice speaking. Not knowing much of meditation back then, I took the Nataraja home, and He lead me into meditation upon him. It was just so magnetic. I could just stare at it for hours on end. Now of course, 35 years later, He is even closer. The first time I saw one 'alive' in a temple, I just fell into prostration, because I could not stand up, He was so strong in vibration. Just sharing testimony here, hopefully not sounding like a braggart. (If you think I am, please just tell me to shut up.) Aum Namashivaya

Namaste EM,
you are blessed... continue and let us know more! Adoring is the key and I can see in you it is genuine. It says in the Taittiriya Samhita [1.8.4.4]
dehi me dadami te ni me dhehi te dadha
You give me I shall give you, establish ( the power) in me I shall bestow power on you.

Your yajya is personal and internal and you are able to live this...

pranams,

[Eastern Mind]

Siva here, Siva there, Siva everywhere.. being a Saivite, I like this thread..one of Subramuniyaswami's basic affirmations "I believe Lord Siva is God, whose absolute being transcends time, form, and space." The title of the third book in the trilogy pretty much sums it all up.. "Merging With Siva" To merge, to become one with .. our destiny, and reason for existence on the planet.

In mundane life out in the world, with our trials, bouts of doubts, the world where Siva dances, it's just nice to have that knowledge as a base, even if you're not a practising yogi, or staunch devotee, its a comforting feeling knowing you are in His care, part of His dance. I believe fully that is why some people are comfortable with death, as Mystical Gypsi pondered on earlier. In the west death is basically denied. No wonder they have problems with it. Like a doctor saying "We lost him" when a 92 year old's body naturally passes on. Lost what? I ask. Did you honestly think that body was going to live forever? Aum Namshivaya

[yajvan]

Hari Om
~~~~~

I thought to re-address this subject as we have given it an appropriate respite since discussing symbols and symbolism. For me I see it in my readings daily... and also, symbols are a fundamental offer of Jyotish prasna marga, so for me as a sisya of this great knowledge I am surrounded it by it daily.

Agnideva had suggested that symbols exists on multiple levels and I concur. One can view or interpret these symbols at the logical (nayyayika) level, the mythological ( and for satay reading this, I use this term as 'based upon or told as historical representation') or itihasika, symbols in ritual or yajnika, in cosmic and natural powers or adibhauta and finally with spiritual intent or adhyatma. So symbols [sanketa] are of great import to Sanatana dharma and is even called out in the Upanishads, that is ,how the devata wish to be addressed or represented . One offer for your consideration can be found on this HDF post: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=2049

So with this post, I thought to stimulate the conversation.

Yet ya gotta ask yourself ( as I do all the time) why go though all the effort of sanketa/symbols - just tell me in simple words the wisdom you want me to learn.

It ( for me) takes much reading and research to get to the golden nuggets of wisdom; it takes one reading the offerings of the swami's, guru's, punditji to separate the wheat from the shaft, just tell me the wisdom and I will drink deeply from the cup!

Well , as far as I can tell all the sanketa/symbols are used for multiple reasons.

• Some say for the protection of the wisdom that it will not be mis-used ( the example of Einstein's regret on E=MC�and the mischief it caused );
• Others say it shows the sisya's focus and one-pointedness, bhakti to the knowledge to learn;
• Others say it is all about sound and form - many of the words/mantras used have a sound quality that was 'designed' for a specific effect on the sadhu, and it happened to be the vibrations found in these sanketa words. That is what I have read over the years and offer this to you for your pondering.

Namaste,

I was thinking of symbols today, and thought of one other obvious reason, why the rishi's choose to offer the truth via symbols (sanketa).

It it because they are graphical and form a picture in ones mind. When one hears of a cow (gau) or horse (ashva), ghee (ghrta), water (apa), etc. A visual usually accompanies these words. So the rishi was also offering more then something just to the intellect, or to the ear, but also to the inner sight , the inner vision. Any vision is ruled by Surya, as he rules sight. He also is the Atmakaraka for a humans on this earth.

And with movement of these entities ( ghrta, gau, apa, parvata) the rishi is stimulating some movement in us. This can be at the consciousness level or at the feeling level. So now one has the vision, the hearing ( if listening to a chant as from the sama ved), feeling, intellect engaged. More of the person is involved to assist with the overall experience of offering satyam and ritam to the native for his/her awakening.


just a thought to round out the conversation from the last post.


pranams,