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Thread: Nothing becomes everything

  1. #1
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    Nothing becomes everything

    hari o
    ~~~~~~

    namasté


    I am watching the Discovery Channel © , How The Universe Works¹. It's an 8 part series, created in 2010.
    This was the first time that I heard astrophysicists and cosmologists talk in a much broader manner ( to my liking ).

    For the Big Bang they talked for some time of nothing becoming everything. This was to my delight. The notion that these people are starting to think in this manner. They also talked of their interest of what was before this big bang, and if there many of these things, and are there multiple ones continuing. ( This is the notion found in string theory as I comprehend it).

    I think they're getting it right. This notion of nothing becomes everything is a principle we find in the upaniṣad-s. It is the notion of pure Being becoming, manifesting. Now when we say nothing , the upaniṣad-s mean no-thing, as Being is no+thing i.e. nothing the is finite, with a dimension that limits It. It is existence itself. From this existence all rises, and all things set.

    They spoke of pure energy ( śakti) that converts into matter. They outlined what occurred during the first few Planck time moments¹. This soup of pure energy, becoming particles and the like.

    So, I have 7 more episodes and hope this same mind set remains throughout.


    praṇām

    references

    http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/how-the-universe-works-nothing-becomes-everything.html


    plank time : 1 second = 1.855094832e+43 Planck units
    Last edited by yajvan; 23 October 2011 at 04:31 PM.
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything


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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Hello Yajvan,



    This notion of nothing becomes everything is a principle we find in the upaniṣad-s. It is the notion of pure Being becoming, manifesting. Now when we say nothing , the upaniṣad-s mean no-thing, as Being is no+thing i.e. nothing the is finite, with a dimension that limits It. It is existence itself. From this existence all rises, and all things set.

    I have to disagree with what you are saying here; I think you are stretching the cosmologist's assertions out of context. Lawrence Krauss, a pre-eminent theoretical physicist is one of the leading proponents of the idea that the Universe came from 'nothing' - and by nothing, he doesn't mean 'no-thing' in the sense of 'pure being' that you are suggesting, he means nothing, non-existence. You can watch one of his talks here;


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo


    Furthermore, you say that the idea of the Universe coming from nothing is a principle championed by the Upanishads, and then even speak on behalf of them when you say 'when we say nothing, the Upanishads mean no-thing'' - but I don't think this idea is met with in the Upanishads. There is one verse which mentions the Universe being unmanifested and 'covered over by Death', before it came into being, but not the idea that it came from nothing. I think the problem here comes from modern attempts at reconciling the buddhist doctrine of emptiness with the Upanishadic doctrine of Brahman as the ultimate Subject (ie not an object or 'thing'). There is nowhere in the Upanishads themselves which say what you are suggesting (and, even if there were, I think it would be a stretch to try and relate it to the ideas being put forth by the cosmologists).

    If you read Chandogya Upanishad, VI. 2. 1 and 2 you will find the idea that the universe arises from non-existence repudiated by the Upanishad.

    1 O good looking one, in the beginning this was Existence alone, One only, without a second. With regard to that some say, "In the beginning this was non-existence alone, one only, without a second. From that non existence issued existence."

    2 He said, 'O good looking one, by what logic can existence verily come out of non-existence? But surely, O good looking one, in the beginning all this was Existence, One only, without a second.
    Shankara in his commentary makes pains to refute the idea that something can come out of nothing, and also goes at length to refute the buddhist doctrine of emptiness at the same time. I think it is too far of a stretch for us to assume that the Upanishad can also mean that since Brahman is not an object that the Universe came from 'nothing'. Brahman is always stated in terms of absolute existence; it is a positive entity- not a nothing (nor is it mentioned in the Upanishads as a no-thing, if my memory serves me right).

    I think that if a cosmologist or a philosopher can say with a straight face that the Universe can come from nothing, then we should try to refute these views and not reinterpret them to save face.

    Scientists in general don't like to approach the topic of eternity, so it may well be that they are unconsciously choosing to interpret their own findings to avoid that conclusion. For now, I think it is simply best if we leave them to it, without trying to shoehorn their theories into transcendental truths.


    Just my opinion, though!






    http://rajahamsah.blogspot.com/ Rāja Haṃsaḥ
    Unfolding the teachings of Advaita Vedānta- my Blog, Updated Daily.

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    hariḥ oṁ
    ~~~~~~

    namasté
    Quote Originally Posted by Ananda View Post

    I have to disagree with what you are saying here; I think you are stretching the cosmologist's assertions out of context. Lawrence Krauss, a pre-eminent theoretical physicist is one of the leading proponents of the idea that the Universe came from 'nothing' - and by nothing, he doesn't mean 'no-thing' in the sense of 'pure being' that you are suggesting, he means nothing, non-existence. You can watch one of his talks here;
    Perhaps he means nothing and I respect your offer and his approach... yet my orientation is of the upaniṣad-s. My approach is to find similarities & the jury is out on this notion of non-existence. It is again addressed in the upaniṣad-s on several occasions.
    The ~argument~ they offer is how can something come from nothing? The point to be made is this nothing is existence itself and it is in fact lively in and of its Self. Let me offer this POV. This is for appreciation purposes and not to defend or cajole: bhāgavad gītā , chapter 9 , 8th śloka:

    prakṛtim svām avastabhya
    visrjami punaḥ punaḥ |
    bhūta-grāmam imaṁ kṛtsnam
    avaśaṁ prakṛter vaśāt ||

    This says curving back (leaning, resting-upon or avaṣṭabhya) onto my SELF (svām) I create (visṛjāmi) again and again (punaḥ punaḥ).
    All this (kṛtsnam) which exists ( manifestation and variety bhūta-grāmam) , that comes into creation (prakṛti) is done by my authority or command (vaśāt).

    It is the notion of this Self-referral ability of Being that creation comes forth.


    That said, I can see how a scientist would not use the term Being - they're not there yet. I suspect they will be , but that is my opinion only.


    praṇām
    यतस्त्वं शिवसमोऽसि
    yatastvaṁ śivasamo'si
    because you are identical with śiva

    _

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    Science ultimately must attain Truth as its final goal and I am seeing it is getting closer and closer. Thanks for the post and the link.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Namaste Ananda,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ananda View Post
    Furthermore, you say that the idea of the Universe coming from nothing is a principle championed by the Upanishads, and then even speak on behalf of them when you say 'when we say nothing, the Upanishads mean no-thing'' - but I don't think this idea is met with in the Upanishads. There is one verse which mentions the Universe being unmanifested and 'covered over by Death', before it came into being, but not the idea that it came from nothing. I think the problem here comes from modern attempts at reconciling the buddhist doctrine of emptiness with the Upanishadic doctrine of Brahman as the ultimate Subject (ie not an object or 'thing'). There is nowhere in the Upanishads themselves which say what you are suggesting (and, even if there were, I think it would be a stretch to try and relate it to the ideas being put forth by the cosmologists).

    If you read Chandogya Upanishad, VI. 2. 1 and 2 you will find the idea that the universe arises from non-existence repudiated by the Upanishad.
    Your assertion that "Everything came out of nothing" is not in the Upanishads is not correct. Please see the following text from SubAlopanishad :

    Naiveha kinchanAgra AsIdmoolamAdhArAmimAh prajAh jAyante |

    This Upanishad asserts that there was no+"thing" in the beginning. Moreover, this no+thing must be clearly understood. Chhandogya Upanishad does say that from "existence" came everything as there can't be non-existence giving birth to "existence" ... and that is correct. However, the assertions in SuBalopanishad and Chhandogya Upanishad don't contracdict each other. Why ? The concept of a "thing" can come only after mind comes into being ... "thing" or "nothing" has no meaning except that they are mental constructs. They don't describe the reality. The Rig-Veda (Samhita part, NAsadiya Sukta) says :

    "There was neither non-existence (asat) nor existence (sat) then. There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond. What stirred? Where? In whose protection? Was there water, bottomlessly deep? There was neither death nor immortality then.There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day. That ONE breathed, windless, by its own impulse. Other than that there was nothing beyond."

    In the beginning i.e. before creation the Reality was in its bare "form" and that bare "form" is neither sat (being/existence) not asat (non-existence/non-being). Therefore, it can be said in both ways because of limitations of concepts available (it cannot be expressed and if tried to be expressed then it has to be with some error ... that is the situation ... this error is inescapable) and neither of the explanations is free from error. It can be said that "Everything came out of "something" which was eternal, indestructible and the essence of this existence". However, as "that" cannot be said to be "a thing" or even "existence" (because this word too has same limitations being a concept within mental framework) ... so certainly there can't be "any+thing" before creation and so, the assertion that it all came out of no+"thing" too is correct.

    The Upanishads tell us that the Reality is neither Sat nor Asat, not both Sat as well as Asat & not even the absence of both Sat and Asat.

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 24 October 2011 at 12:51 AM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Namaste Ananda,

    I forgot to mention Taitriya Upanishad which also asserts :

    AsdvA idamagra AsIt. Tato vai sadjAyatah.

    ==> In the beginning it was Asat. From that alone Sat came into being.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Namaste Yajvan ji,

    I found this link. It is interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Fnopw_v0

    and this too :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EyAK...eature=related

    OM
    Last edited by devotee; 23 October 2011 at 09:05 PM.
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Pietro Impagliazzo View Post
    What is this?

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    Re: Nothing becomes everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahasranama View Post
    What is this?
    I don't know much about it, just saw on Facebook ads, some acquaintances of mine who are into Vedanta liked it.

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