Diwali?

[Jainarayan]

India is not the USA where 85% of the people speak English as their first language. You are not Indian and it'll be difficult for me to explain what I am talking about. But I'll give it a shot. Imagine the whole of North America becomes one country and some English speakers decide to move to one of the Spanish speaking parts(say Mexico). They stay there for decades and still wont learn Spanish.

No I am not Indian, this is true. But don't underestimate my intelligence or ability to grasp certain concepts. Especially linguistic concepts.

However, I must point out that your example of not learning a language for decades of residence is not new nor is it unique to India. North and South America, and virtually every other nation and culture on Earth has that experience. We've had people in the US for decades from Spanish-speaking countries who do not speak English. Virtually every label on every product in the US is written in English, Spanish and French. French?

Do some Americans get cranky about it? No, not at all. A lot of Americans get cranky about it and say either speak English or leave. These are the same people that expect Milanese or Parisians to speak English.

I personally could not care less. As EM says, it's in the attitude. If a Spanish speaker with poor English tries honestly to communicate with me, I'll try to meet them halfway and use my fractured Spanish.

Also I was not talking about one language with different accents, so your example of various accents in the US does not apply here.

Sure it does. Why would it be different? I knew a guy from North Carolina who moved to New Jersey, that I couldn't understand if my life depended on it. If there was any problem in him speaking the way he did, the problem was mine, not his. For all intents and purposes he was speaking a different language.

Five will get you ten that you cannot pronounce Sanskrit the way it was pronounced in Classical times. None of us can. Why? Because we didn't learn it when our brains were able to easily pick up different phonologies. And that's our liturgical language. Unless you were born speaking English as your first language, I'll bet I could find fault with your pronunciations of English words, names and locations.

I am sure there are. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Glad to help.

And we wonder why there will most likely never be peace in the world if we get cranky about pronunciations.

[Jainarayan]

But the worst is humour. When two or more people are all laughing in some other language and you're missing out on the fun, it really brings out the greenest of envy! Then they try to translate it for you, but the humour is lost in translation.

Aum Namasivaya

I'll see your humor and raise you diplomacy.

True story: American diplomat at the U.N. uses the idiom "out of the frying pan into the fire". Hmm... that does not translate into Russian, as the idiom doesn't exist. Classic example of lost in the translation. So what does the Russian translator do? He translates it as "run away from the wolf only to meet the bear". Good job nicely done.

[Yava Dari]

No I am not Indian, this is true. But don't underestimate my intelligence or ability to grasp certain concepts. Especially linguistic concepts.

However, I must point out that your example of not learning a language for decades of residence is not new nor is it unique to India. North and South America, and virtually every other nation and culture on Earth has that experience. We've had people in the US for decades from Spanish-speaking countries who do not speak English. Virtually every label on every product in the US is written in English, Spanish and French. French?

Do some Americans get cranky about it? No, not at all. A lot of Americans get cranky about it and say either speak English or leave. These are the same people that expect Milanese or Parisians to speak English.

I personally could not care less. As EM says, it's in the attitude. If a Spanish speaker with poor English tries honestly to communicate with me, I'll try to meet them halfway and use my fractured Spanish.



Sure it does. Why would it be different? I knew a guy from North Carolina who moved to New Jersey, that I couldn't understand if my life depended on it. If there was any problem in him speaking the way he did, the problem was mine, not his. For all intents and purposes he was speaking a different language.

Five will get you ten that you cannot pronounce Sanskrit the way it was pronounced in Classical times. None of us can. Why? Because we didn't learn it when our brains were able to easily pick up different phonologies. And that's our liturgical language. Unless you were born speaking English as your first language, I'll bet I could find fault with your pronunciations of English words, names and locations.

I tried to simplify the issue so that an outsider like you can understand it. My mistake .

[devotee]

You truly believe it is all right for a person to move to a different state and never even learn to pronounce the name of the state or local language? Guess both us were talking to the wrong person.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know how many languages are there in Bihar and Jharkhand (which you might be considering Hindi states) ? Yes, languages and not dialects. Do you know what are the essential elements for making a country like India with so much diversity ? Do you know why there is a need for having a common language for a country and how and why it is so important ? Do you know what are the social, commercial and financial costs of failures to have one common language to interact ? Do you know what cost Tamilnadu had to pay for remaining anti-Hindi and how much the lower middle class and the state as a whole had to suffer financially ? Do you know how Hindi was decided to be the National Official Language & why ?

I am sure you can't understand any of these. BTW, there is no place for a political agenda that you have brought here. If you are so much interested to vent your anti-Hindi feelings, you should better do it in some other place.

OM

[Yava Dari]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know how many languages are there in Bihar and Jharkhand (which you might be considering Hindi states) ? Yes, languages and not dialects. Do you know what are the essential elements for making a country like India with so much diversity ? Do you know why there is a need for having a common language for a country and how and why it is so important ? Do you know what are the social, commercial and financial costs of failures to have one common language to interact ? Do you know what cost Tamilnadu had to pay for remaining anti-Hindi and how much the lower middle class and the state as a whole had to suffer financially ? Do you know how Hindi was decided to be the National Official Language & why ?

I am sure you can't understand any of these. BTW, there is no place for a political agenda that you have brought here.
OM

Actually I can understand them. The fate that awaits all ready ailing Maithili, Bhojpuri etc is exactly what the rest of us are afraid about. Also where TN stands vis-a-vis the other states is something easily verifiable.

If you are so much interested to vent your anti-Hindi feelings, you should better do it in some other place.

I won't call myself anti-Hindi, I am just not pro-Hindi. But I do agree that this not the place to discuss such issues. I really did not want to get into to all this.

[devotee]

Also where TN stands vis-a-vis the other states is something easily verifiable.

You appear to be too young. Go back before the IT boom. Moreover, it is not comparison with other states which can give the correct figures. The real picture can be known by estimating what it could have been otherwise. Again, the people in Tamilnadu, who could afford, kept private tutors for teaching Hindi to their wards. Today, most of the well known schools in Chennai have Hindi as one of the three languages in their schools under the three language formula. The parents are ready to pay hefty fee to private tutors to see their wards well versed in Hindi.

With your attitude, you are painting a fragmented picture of India which can be a matter of joy for enemies of India. ... and you say that you understand things ! Are you trying to garner global support for your lingual extremism ?

OM

[Yava Dari]

You appear to be too young. Go back before the IT boom.

Sir, if we compare TNs position relative to other Indian states based on HDI and GDI we can see that it has remained the same. When compared my own state Karnataka which has been very receptive to Hindi they have always performed better. Whether they would have performed better or worse if they had adopted Hindi we will never know.

Again, the people in Tamilnadu, who could afford, kept private tutors for teaching Hindi to their wards. Today, most of the well known schools in Chennai have Hindi as one of the three languages in their schools under the three language formula. The parents are ready to pay hefty fee to private tutors to see their wards well versed in Hindi.

I have no objection if someone decides to learn Hindi or any other language by choice. In fact that is the way it should be.

With your attitude, you are painting a fragmented picture of India which can be a matter of joy for enemies of India. ... and you say that you understand things ! Are you trying to garner global support for your lingual extremism ?

It was not my intention to portray a fragmented picture of India. I am sorry if my posts made it seem that way.

Let me also point out that I still do not agree with your opinion that "No to Hindi= No to India", or by corollary Hindi=India. India is a country with multiple cultures, languages and religions and I hope it remains so. Also I don't see why I would need global support for my so called lingual extremism? Please note the whole discussion began when someone asked if I had anything against Hindi speaking people and I just answered as to what I felt.

[devotee]

Let me also point out that I still do not agree with your opinion that "No to Hindi= No to India", or by corollary Hindi=India. India is a country with multiple cultures, languages and religions and I hope it remains so.

It is nice to see that we are coming to a better understanding. I would have left it here but before we close this, I would like to clarify some issues :

a) India's diversity is something to be proud of & I too wish it should remain that way.
b) "Hindi = India" was never the equation and would never be. It will be foolish to have on stake the whole country's interests in on one side and the language on the other. My post never intended that. What I was trying to say is that we have many sub-cultures within India, we speak many languages etc. & we should benefit from that ... it enriches our life.

Learning a common language does help in many ways. Why are we interacting in English here ? ... so that we are understood by others. How keeping English in schools in India helped India in today's global business environment ? Why China was forced to learn English ? One should try to learn as many languages as is possible for him/her ... at least the important ones. My learning, speaking and writing in English doesn't make my Hindi poor. I wish I would have learnt French ... but it was too late by the time I realised this. This cost me a very attractive assignment in a World Bank's project.

I know one Telugu girl (one of my friend's daughter) who was selected in all interviews in almost all airlines just because of her strength in English, Hindi, Tamil and Telugu. She otherwise was an average student with average looks. The reason was that there were very few candidates knowing so many languages which made her an asset in the hospitality sector.

If you are a professional & you take a vow that you will only speak and communicate in your mother tongue Kannada and in no other language ... you are going to harm your interests alone & doing no good to Kannada either.

c) You also have misplaced conception that Hindi speaking people have much advantages when it comes to taking Central Govt exams. The reality is that the university level education in India is mostly in English. On the other hand, the professional Hindi is not simple ... it is easier to understand English (because of common usage and available teaching) that the professional Hindi. Ask any of your Engg/medical friend from Hindi Heartland (in your words) to appear in UPSE exam in Hindi ... or even face an interview in Hindi ... he will sweat in a chilly weather !

d) At last your fear that other languages would meet the same (bad) fate as Maithili, Bhojpuri etc. had. First of all, these languages have not met any bad fate ... they have their own importance in their areas and it is unlikely that they would lose their importance for their people in future. The purpose of a language is to communicate ... language is a tool for leading a good life ... it should not become an end unto itself.

Even if accept for argument sake that it happens (what you suggested for Bhojpuri/Maithili) ... it has no comparison with languages in states falling "C" category under Official Language Actn(Karnataka is in "C" category). In fact, it can't happen even in "B" category states. Why ? Because in your own state, everything is done in your local language. Punjab is in B-category ... but I see Punjabi is not only progressing but thriving ... it is becoming very popular day-by-day due to its lively songs, thanks to the singers of Punjab.

So, you are worried for something and imagining things which are unlikely to take shape even in remote future.

I would leave here. This thread was not for this purpose.

OM

[Believer]

Namaste Yava,

I am sorry that as a new member, we have not not been very hospitable to you. Unfortunately, some issues do arouse passionate responses. I am so cognizant of the fact that the good people of Karnatka have been most receptive to the Hindi language and to the base of the only nationalist political party. Sometimes, we tend to not notice the good deeds done for us all. The India specific issues are unique with so many layers of feelings and passions that it make it hard for outsiders to grasp the full extent of ground reality. I would probably recuse myself if I were in that situation and not get involved with them at the macro level. In any event, I do hope that you stay with us and make your voice heard. A forest would be a very boring place if we had only one type of bird singing/chirping all the time.

Pranam.