Our body and our mental relation with it.

[Adhvagat]

I'm not sure this is the right forum to pose this question, but it's just something that confuses me a lot.

In this neverending battle between spiritualists and materialists (which can be seen archetypically as a battle between light and darkness, or devas and asuras - distancing ourselves from a moral understanding of both) I cannot stop considering this:

Let's take our brain for example, since it's our most used organ in life, be it through intellectual debate or emotional life, from a reductionist materialistic point of view, my brain is just chemicals and neurons interacting. However, if that's what my brain is and that makes up my mind, why am I not aware of "neuron X, communicate with neuron Y"? Isn't that my mind? If I can access a memory, why can't I access what they say my memory really is?

So we come to a point, I think in my poor thinking process, that the mind cannot be reduced to the brain. However, if you take the brain out of a person, the body becomes a rotting shell. But there are also cases where a significant part of the brain is lost and the person is not affected, perhaps taking away 250 petals from a 1000 petal lotus still makes for a great unique flower.

The dependancy we have on the biological however, also takes away the absolute crown from the subtle and the unseen. It's a very thin line we walk and perhaps the best thing we can do is giving due credit to both sides of manifestation.

Let me also add some not-so-disconnected thougts, the first one was Alan Watts mentioning how it is amazing that we need not know how the body works to live, just like we can use a machine not designed by us, this must point that the intelligence of the universe is infinitely higher than ours.

The second was a quotation from a neuroscientist my teacher used on his class of pyschogenesis vs. neurogensis of mental illnesses, this scientist observed how memory was not in the neuron itself, but in the relation between neurons. And his overall conclusion was that the idea of the biological presenting a deterministic, reductionist understanding of life is also old, since with modern research we look at it and all we find is more mysteries. But I need to get these quotations from my teacher, I'll add them here later on.

Anyway guys, these are just my sincere doubts, sorry if they are dumb or shallow, but that's what I can't understand right now.

[sm78]

Yes consciousness can be mapped into/reduced to biology and neurology, and experience (even out of body, ghost seeing and such stuff) can be explained at the level of the brain. Hasn't the hatha yogi's and tantrik's done it already with all the centers in spine and brain? What neuroscience are trying to do is just a modern effort of the same, maybe a much more sophisticated effort by the look of it.

But the whole consciousness thing is still chicken before eggs or egg before chicken question. What we call objective reality which science can test is still a subjective experience, but a collective one - can it in any way contradict another subjective experience at another level, just because it is not collective?

Finally, body, nerves, cells is consciousness

But most importantly if science can redefine our existential questions, answer them more effectively at the expense of contradicting or destroying our cherished "spiritual" ideals - I will be fine. Everybody should train themselves to be fine for that eventuality, otherwise you are just carrying dead weight of dogma.

[sm78]

this scientist observed how memory was not in the neuron itself, but in the relation between neurons.

Interesting and makes sense. A Buddhist will be more happy, but nonetheless.

[Mana]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo,

I'm not sure that your analogy is correct as to light and darkness toward materialists and spiritualists; There is light and darkness in both materialism and spiritualism. To see this as a black and white affair is a somewhat dual view, an easy state of thought to slide into yet not a very productive one.

I should stipulate that our heart and lungs get more use than our brains, that our brains are driven afterwards, by prana which starts by entering our body as breath. So from the mind we can detach a little sometimes and it does us no harm at all, au contraire

The view of neuro science is founded heavily in physical theory, based in extremely complexed models derived from maths and not biological material; as we are often lead to believe. It is interesting, as sm78 has already heighlighted, we have tantric models of the neuro endocrine system which have been derived from inner reflection, which are to my mind, much more advanced than the western model, which is still only just realising the wisdom of this ancient science of thought and feeling.

We must be careful when we speak of "our" memory's as neuro epigenetic would suggest that memory's are transferred somehow between generations via some as yet unexplained processes. So the traditional material view that science holds is now crumbling failing.
Yes it is a fine line, a fine line between the concious act and the subconscious deed.

If we do not respect the material nature of our body's we can not expect to have a balanced mind either as all is interconnected as one. A calm steady mind is reflected upon the physical body in ways which are extremely good for the biological body of both the practitioner and those that they interact social.

Again it is all about the balance.

There is no problem with having doubts, they keep us in check somewhat, this is the perfect place to voice them.

I wish you well Pietro, I hope that your doubt subsides to reveal new and greater glories. Some times the tide washes up the most beautiful realisations.


praNAma

mana

[Adhvagat]

Yes consciousness can be mapped into/reduced to biology and neurology, and experience (even out of body, ghost seeing and such stuff) can be explained at the level of the brain. Hasn't the hatha yogi's and tantrik's done it already with all the centers in spine and brain? What neuroscience are trying to do is just a modern effort of the same, maybe a much more sophisticated effort by the look of it.

But the whole consciousness thing is still chicken before eggs or egg before chicken question. What we call objective reality which science can test is still a subjective experience, but a collective one - can it in any way contradict another subjective experience at another level, just because it is not collective?

Finally, body, nerves, cells is consciousness

But most importantly if science can redefine our existential questions, answer them more effectively at the expense of contradicting or destroying our cherished "spiritual" ideals - I will be fine. Everybody should train themselves to be fine for that eventuality, otherwise you are just carrying dead weight of dogma.

SM, what do you say about the events that contradicts consciousness as contained in the biological body? I'm not posing this question trying to disprove any biological approach, but I think these unusual events must be taken into account, like dreaming aboutthe future (even if it's your next day - it happens constantly with me), premonitory dreams or near-death and out of body experiences when people report they witnessed what they could never witness with their body.

Chicken/eggs indeed and isn't the great problem the very terms we use to define what's matter and what's spiritual? If we are pure consciousness (spiritual) witnessing matter, what's the difference between consciousness and matter? They are both interacting directly! As Alan Watts observe "there's no such thing as matter", if matter, looking very closely is nothing but hollow particles pretending to be something in a supra-binary code/combination, is that really matter? That's maya! It's not as solid as it seems to be when we contrast it with the spirit, the subtle. The concept of prakrti as a whole is much more advanced concept and encompasses both subtle and gross aspects of nature.

Regarding your last paragraph, why should science destroy cherished spiritual ideals, specially those very valuable from the metaphysics of Hinduism, those are extremely valid psychological observations about our nature, so why not build on top of it.

This to me seems like the hybris that held back both science and religion (in the sense of self-realization), one trying to destroy another. Why not one help one another? To me it seems the moral boogeyman aspect of religion is what is not necessary anymore but Hinduism is much more than this even though it still suffers from it, like every other religious line.

And this hybris works both ways, so called rational minded scientists ignore the blatant occurence of unusual events that cannot be explained by a model of consciousness that is completely contained within the biological while spiritualists try to deny and denigrate matter as something they are not. Both are ignorant stances, they are just flowing in opposite directions.

Interesting and makes sense. A Buddhist will be more happy, but nonetheless.

Why do you say so? Don't you think this goes in line with Hinduism?

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo,

I'm not sure that your analogy is correct as to light and darkness toward materialists and spiritualists; There is light and darkness in both materialism and spiritualism. To see this as a black and white affair is a somewhat dual view, an easy state of thought to slide into yet not a very productive one.

I should stipulate that our heart and lungs get more use than our brains, that our brains are driven afterwards, by prana which starts by entering our body as breath. So from the mind we can detach a little sometimes and it does us no harm at all, au contraire

The view of neuro science is founded heavily in physical theory, based in extremely complexed models derived from maths and not biological material; as we are often lead to believe. It is interesting, as sm78 has already heighlighted, we have tantric models of the neuro endocrine system which have been derived from inner reflection, which are to my mind, much more advanced than the western model, which is still only just realising the wisdom of this ancient science of thought and feeling.

We must be careful when we speak of "our" memory's as neuro epigenetic would suggest that memory's are transferred somehow between generations via some as yet unexplained processes. So the traditional material view that science holds is now crumbling failing.
Yes it is a fine line, a fine line between the concious act and the subconscious deed.

If we do not respect the material nature of our body's we can not expect to have a balanced mind either as all is interconnected as one. A calm steady mind is reflected upon the physical body in ways which are extremely good for the biological body of both the practitioner and those that they interact social.

Again it is all about the balance.

There is no problem with having doubts, they keep us in check somewhat, this is the perfect place to voice them.

I wish you well Pietro, I hope that your doubt subsides to reveal new and greater glories. Some times the tide washes up the most beautiful realisations.


praNAma

mana

Mana, I was giving an example of enantiodromia, of the need for people to grab each end of a spectrum when discussing things, the need for the world to be black and white. That's why we see endless silly fights between materialists and spiritualists, when they are arguing about the same thing, which is existence itself.

This issue of belonging, does my mind belong to me? Perhaps just as much as my body. While this speck of consciousness is experiencing it, perhaps I can say so.

Consciousness, unconsciousness, even analyzing the whole of the psychic life, I still cannot stop questioning: Awareness is above these! Which is pure being that transcends these two aspects.

However, unconsciousness poses a great dillema (in my view) to awareness, because we cannot recall our direct experience of it, it's like an advaitic non-experience where we fuse into a whole and when our awareness returns to the ego, we recall certain events of this former state.

[smaranam]

Namaste

Of course PrakRti and Purusha go hand-in-hand and cannot be seperately viewed. Sanatan Dharma never denies prakRti. It advocates getting rid of vikAr (flaws) and vyAdhi.

What it says is that PrakRti is totally dependant on paramAtmA. Only paramAtmA, BhagvAn, GOD, is Absolutely Independant.
When the-products-of-prakRti think they are independant that is the illusion.

Brain is the medium for paramAtmA to facilitate sentience in us. If brain is removed, why should paramAtmA simply hang out in the broken body ? To make it dance ?
It does not prove that brain/nervous system is the be-all end-all - as in examples given above like intuition given by Supersoul (paramAtmA).

PrakRti comes in layers : internal potency of paramAtmA, external potency of paramAtmA (creative energy), in-between sUkshma (subtle) prakRti
and sthUla (gross) prakRti.

PrakRti Herself, the source of created Universe, is what we call the unmanifest (but is about to manifest OR has the potential to manifest). She has a source, and that is paramAtmA , Uttam Purush (Purushottam) You-Know-WHO.

JivAtmA are that rarefied form of highest [avyakta] prakRti seen thru' kAraN sharIr (causal body) at its max efficiency (on Anandmay kosha), that interacts with paramAtmA, Supersoul. There is a thin layer of jiva prakRti in her purest form around the innermost core of paramAtmA.

Not all scientists are atheists and not all spiritual people turn their back on science and scientists.

There are no boogeymen in Sanatan Dharma.

On the contrary, real spiritual life thrives only and only on Pure Love, object of which can be none other than paramAtmA.

Because the jivAtmA loves paramAtmA they feel oneness with Him, see Him in the mirror, and see Him everywhere, all by His grace.
For this reason, the jivAtmA is the raremost/lightest layer of prakRti to sing the duet with Him. That is the purpose of her existence. When eyes are four...

So, Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam rather than think too much of neuroscience.

praNAm

[Mana]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo

Enantiodromia is typically experienced in conjunction with symptoms associated with acute neurosis, and often foreshadows a rebirth of the personality.

Is it not the auto justification of this state, which keeps one confined within these limits. Acceptance of ones complete irrelevance allows for freedom from these confines; thus freedom from saMskAra.

Do we not seek to escape the cycle of rebirth?


praNAma

mana

AUM

[kallol]

The little that I understood, I will try to put up here.

The fact that during we are unaware of the body hapenning during deep focus, sleep, unconsciousness, etc point to the fact that there is something beyond the body. This enty, when it remains attached to body, interacts with external medium through the brains and thereafter through the body.
This entity is, as we know, is the mind. Just like a driver - driving the car or a kid using the computer, this mind is using the body.

Driver interacts with the outside world through accelerator, clutch, brake, light, wiper, etc., but does not know how they work inside. If driver is not there the car is useless.

The kid interacts through the monitor and keyboard. He does not understand what is going on in the CPU.

Similarly the mind is what translates the processing of the brain into something tangible and there by it takes decisions through iterative processing and finally acts through the action organs.

Just like the characteristics of the car is defined by its driver (not all cars, even of same model, behave similarly on roads). Simialrly the chracteristics of a body is defined by the mind. Put different minds in the same body, the body will act differently.

That is why a strong stress in Hinduism is on upliftment of the MIND. This is majorly to utilize the body system and subsystems better and more aligned to the higher nature.

Love and best wishes

[Adhvagat]

Namaste Pietro Impagliazzo

Is it not the auto justification of this state, which keeps one confined within these limits. Acceptance of ones complete irrelevance allows for freedom from these confines; thus freedom from saMskAra.

Do we not seek to escape the cycle of rebirth?


praNAma

mana

AUM

Enantiodromia is actually the natural state of the world. Life turns to death, joy turns to sorrow, light turns to darkness and so on. A positive state is bound to flow to a negative one and vice versa.

The little that I understood, I will try to put up here.

The fact that during we are unaware of the body hapenning during deep focus, sleep, unconsciousness, etc point to the fact that there is something beyond the body. This enty, when it remains attached to body, interacts with external medium through the brains and thereafter through the body.
This entity is, as we know, is the mind. Just like a driver - driving the car or a kid using the computer, this mind is using the body.

Driver interacts with the outside world through accelerator, clutch, brake, light, wiper, etc., but does not know how they work inside. If driver is not there the car is useless.

The kid interacts through the monitor and keyboard. He does not understand what is going on in the CPU.

Similarly the mind is what translates the processing of the brain into something tangible and there by it takes decisions through iterative processing and finally acts through the action organs.

Just like the characteristics of the car is defined by its driver (not all cars, even of same model, behave similarly on roads). Simialrly the chracteristics of a body is defined by the mind. Put different minds in the same body, the body will act differently.

That is why a strong stress in Hinduism is on upliftment of the MIND. This is majorly to utilize the body system and subsystems better and more aligned to the higher nature.

Love and best wishes

An important point in this matter is the psychosomatic nature of diseases. I'm a little appalled people do not realize how much their ailments are based on their very states of mind.

Considering a person is not exposed to unnecessary environmental influences and is a decent healthy being, there's no reason for many of diseases people develop, cancer being the most expressive of the examples.

It's also funny how Ayurveda already dealt extensively with the nature of the disease as an energetic imbalance that starts in the mind. That brings me to a point that SM touched in his first post. Hinduism should be looked upon as a great resource for understanding of life, even in this day and age of modern science, because western science is turning more and more towards understandings that were already offered in the ancient past but due to the inherent hybris that came with western science (and the western mindset that can't understand the eastern mindset correctly) they are only accepting or seeing more clearly now what the East had offered a long time ago.

But most importantly if science can redefine our existential questions, answer them more effectively at the expense of contradicting or destroying our cherished "spiritual" ideals - I will be fine. Everybody should train themselves to be fine for that eventuality, otherwise you are just carrying dead weight of dogma.

So in a more direct answer to SM now, I don't think it's reasonable to expect science to destroy cherished "spiritual" ideals, specially when western science is having great insights by looking at the East with a new perspective.

Since you mentioned the chakras, I'll post part of a C.A. Meier book where he discusses the localization of consciousness in our body and utilizes the observation of the chakras for a case study. C.A. Meier was a swiss psychitriast who advanced the works of Jung after its passing.

It's a very interesting read, so here it goes: www.unidadezero.com/pub/doc/consciousness

[kallol]

Much of the diseases (particularly the so called executive diseaeses), as you pointed out, are out of the unaligned body and mind.

Ofcourse just like not all cars of same model, do have same physical charateristics, all humans also have unique characteristics. Some are weak in stomach, some in knee, some in memory, etc.

The misuse of the body, wrecks the weak points. In trying to react to those regular nonfunctionig and through the usage of artificial means (allopathic treatments), the parts sometimes become malignant.

Yes you are right, we are yet to achieve the kind of knowledge the ancestors had about the body and mind relations.

We have only started to rediscover again.

Love and best wishes