The login and password for the Dvaita List Archive on dvaita.org are `dvaita' and `dvaita' (no quote-marks).Originally Posted by satay
NewSoul
The login and password for the Dvaita List Archive on dvaita.org are `dvaita' and `dvaita' (no quote-marks).
"Svechhopat pritha vapuh"
- Srimad Bhagavatam.
Sri Bhagavan's body is exactly according to His desire and is of His nature.
"Nishvasit masya Vedaha"
He BREATHED.
"Ahasya mahato bhutasya nichvatimetat rg vedo,yajur veda,sama vedotharva vedah.."
The Four vedas were manifested in His BREATH.
"Sa icchat" -Aitereya upanishad 1.1.
He THOUGHT.
***
"Sa Icchanchakre." - Prashnopanishad 6.3
"Tad Icchat." -Chadogya Upanishad 6.2.3.
"Sa aizcchat." - Brhadaranyako Upanishad.
"So Kaamayat" Taitereya upanishad 2.6
He had a DESIRE.
***
"Smitam" He smiled.
"Vikcchittam" He Observed.
***
"Dva dasha vadu bhaya vidho badarayano ta" Brahm Sutra 4.4.12
"Sa yada sa sharira tam sankalpa yati
tadasa shariro bhavati
yada tva shariratam
tada tva shariraha
satya sankalpatvat
sankalpa vyatyityacca"
- SHAANKAR Bhasya.
Meaning of Shaankar bhashya : Brahm is Formless as well as with an eternal Form.He mainfests these Two forms from beginningless time with His energy of "Satya Sankalpa".
Note that Satya Sankalpa is the energy manifested ONLY is Saguna,Sakar,Savishesh Brahm Sri Krsna.
Satya Sankalpa ...The possessor of this energy Immediately implies the Supreme Person.For Only a PERSONALITY exhibits the energy or working out of a 'sankalpa'/'desire'.
Thus Brahm is understood to be a PERSONALITY who has infinite energies.
"....The Divine Purusha with a thousand heads, eyes, feet and arms (Virat-purusha),
He entered Brahma Himself.He created seven mental sons – they created the seven pro-creators...."
1-6. Subala Upanishad.
***
....from that Great Purusha's forehead,was created Rudra (of anger)...
-Subala Upanishad.
***
"At the end, becoming Vaisvanara (fire), He destroys all creatures – earth enters into water, water into fire, fire into air, air into ether, ether into sense organs, they into subtle elements, they into Prakriti, Prakriti into Mahat, Mahat into Avyakta, Avyakta into Akshara, Akshara into Tamas,Tamas in that Primeval Godhead/Mahapurusha.This is the process of Mahapralaya ."
- Subala Upanishad
***
"The UNBORN, alone, immortal Being inside the body(inside everyone's body as paramatma different from aatma), whose body is the Earth,Who moves inside water, Who moves inside fire,Who moves inside Air,Who moves inside the Aakash,so also inside Mind, Intellect, Ego,Chitta, Avyakta (unmanifest), Akshara (imperishable), Death – He sits within everything,He is the Sinless One,He is the Supersoul,Divine Narayana."
-Subala Upanishad 4.1
***
Adityas, Rudras, Maruts, Vasus, Asvins, Rik, Yajus, Sama, Mantras, Agni, oblation – all originate from Him, Narayana.
Subala Upanishad 3.4
***
"All this exists from Purusha only – the past and the future – that high place of Vishnu – the sages look upon it always.The sages without mental conflict(CONTROL OVER MIND/complete purification of the mind) enhance its glory."-
- Subala Upanishad 3.7
This is the key to liberation according to the Vedas.
("One who knows the Three PURUSHA incarnations of Sri Bhagavan is eligible to cross Material Samsara"- Bhagvatam.
The bhagavatam extensively describes the creation process brought to effect by divine Mahavishnu,Who is unborn and is called MAha-viraat by the upanishads.)
This Paramatma is NOT ATTAINED by :
hundreds of expositions,
not by great learning,
nor by reliance on intellectual knowledge,
nor through memorising the Vedas,
sacrifices, austerities,
NOR THROUGH SANKHYA OR YOGA,
Ashramas/Varnaasramas,
elucidation,
laudation and exercises.
The knowers of Vedas achieve it, having become calm, restrained, withdrawn, tolerant.(CONTROL OVER MIND/Completely purified Mind).
- Subala Upanishad 4.16
Thus CONTROL OF MIND is NOT POSSIBLE by Sankhya/yoga/tapa/study of scriptures/JNYANA,etc.
Shudhyati naa antaraatma Krsna padaambhoj bhaktimriteh.
- Prabodha shudhakara of shankaracharya.
The mind cannot be purified unless you perform bhakti of the supreme lord.
Sudarshan,you've got it right,my friend.
God does have desires and all those desires are fulfilled with His infinitude of energies(mentioned in svetasvatara up.).
The 8 qualities of Brahm mentioned in the upanishads mention these two explicitly : Satyakaama and satyasankalpa.
God is Supremely Willful.His will is be all and end all.The fact that God has will can be accepted in the light of the Vaisnava doctrine,otherwise it falls flat and leads to many confusions.
Member
Namaste Ranjeet,
Similarly as I request to bandhu Sant not to take my posts as argument but just as a view for consideration, i request you too.
The understanding of God/Brahman as Supremely Willful is good and rightly you provide evidence for that. But this view is not yet complete since Brahman is also described as AptakAmamAtmakAmamakAmaM (whose desire is all fulfilled, who is desireless, whose desire pertains to Self only).
Brihadarayanaka
IV-iii-21: That is his form – beyond desires, free from evils and fearless. ----.
With only willfullness of God in mind we cannot explain the negativities of this world. Why an Omnipotent and Omniscient Lord create a universe full of vice?
Brahman is revealed in at least 4 stages. But I will talk only of two major stages: kAla and aKala. As kAla, Brahman is Death and is the spirit of the Sun (Purusha in Sun). From Sun begins the Time. Without Sun the Time will be understood as an artifice. Beyond Sun, or within the Heart of the Sun, is the immortal -- which is akAla -- the time is from That.
Upanishads speak of travelling through the path of Sun to Brahmloka, wherefrom a Purusha takes the sadhaka to the immortal. Another way is spoken as below:
IV-iv-6: -----But the man who does not desire (never transmigrates). Of him who is without desires, who is free from desires, the objects of whose desire have been attained, and to whom all objects of desire are but the Self – the organs do not depart. Being but Brahman, he is merged in Brahman.
In Maitraya Brahmaya upanishad, the latter path is spoken of as the ultimate path taught by Vishnu.
-----------------------------
Let me also explain it in microcosmic terms.
A person wakes, dreams or sleeps. The Turiyam, the Self, the Brahman is just across the Sleep, which is the bridge between kAla and the akAla.
Do you have any desire or will in deep sleep? But in dream and in waking state you have will and desires. Shri Krishna is the Purusha Sarvesvara of Deep Sleep. He says: I hurl back the hard hearted demons to lower and lower states. Everyone comes back from sleep to face the world as per one's desires. Negative desires pull one down and down. Positive desires eventually allow one to know Sarvesvara.
But Sarvesvara Himself has said: Those know who know ME UNBORN and AKSHARA. That is knowing Lord beyond the Sleep, as akAla, as unborn. None, however, knows Him since, there will be no one but Pragnya alone.
Om Namah Shivaya
Note: If you consult Sudarshana now, he might approve of my note. That has been my fruit of being in HDF.
Om
Last edited by atanu; 24 November 2009 at 11:25 PM.
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Member
As evidence for what has been said above:
Satapatha Brahmana
10:4:3:1. The Year, doubtless, is the same as Death; for he it is who, by means of day and night, destroys the life of mortal beings, and then they die: therefore the Year is the same as Death; and whosoever knows this Year (to be) Death, his life that (year) does not destroy, by day and night, before old age, and he attains his full (extent of) life.
10:5:2:3. And that man in yonder (sun's) orb is no other than Death; and that glowing light is that immortal element: therefore Death does not die, for he is within the immortal; and therefore he is not seen, for he is within the immortal.
10:5:1:4. Now, this speech is yonder sun, and this (Agni, the Fire-altar) is Death: hence whatsoever is on this side of the sun all that is field by Death; and he who builds it (the Fire-altar) on this side thereof, builds it as one held by Death, and he surrenders his own self unto Death; but he who builds it thereabove, conquers recurring Death, for by his knowledge that (altar) of his is built thereabove.
-----------------------
10:5:4:16. Regarding this there is this verse--'By knowledge they ascend that (state) where desires have vanished: sacrificial gifts go not thither, nor the fervid practisers of rites without knowledge;'--for, indeed, he who does not know this does not attain to that world either by sacrificial gifts or by devout practices, but only to those who know does that world belong.
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
Namaste atanu,I'm delighted to meet you.
Very true.He described in the vedic literature as Atmarama/Purnkaam/Nishkaam,etc. i.e. He has no desire becoz He is Bliss Himself.How can ananda have any desire ??? We want ananda and so we desire.
But :
Raso Vai saha - taittereya up.
He is Rasa/bliss/ananda.
Countless places we hear,"You are the embodiment of the highest bliss."
So why does Bhagavan desire ? Why does He will ? Why does Ananda itself desire something ?
It is for the welfare of the liberated souls.
"satyam gyanam anantam brahm" - Brahm has infinite paraphernalia.
Paraphernalia indicates some sort of desire of the owner of the paraphernalia-this is obvious.
many a times,we see that Sri Krsna desires something which may seem of no consequence to the conditioned souls,that is becoz the personal Form of God wonders on the sheer infinitude of His energies and the indescibable happiness that is saturated in His form.The desires related to His personal Form/Name/parshads and leelas are hardly material.Such desires cannot be vanquished either in the personal form of God neither can it be vanquished from the mind of the liberated devotee.There would be no point of a God with form then.
But yes,God is totally aloof as well as He is the centre of enjoyment of the spiritual world.THis is possible only due to His inconcievable energy.
The svtasvatara up states that "He can run without legs..."
How is this possible ???
The vedas answer - "Kartum akartum anyatha kartum samartha. "
The Supreme Lord is able to do any kind of a task,in any way He wishes.He can do the impossible possible.
so god can do seemingly contradictory things due to His energies.
It's not a universe full of vice !
There is svarga loka for pious people.
The universe is a mere system to get the soul as close to God as possible.But since God is All will - this question arises :
Why doesn't god liberate us all if He is all will ?
Sri Maharajji addressed this as: "Bhagavan is Omnipotent and He is satya-sankalpa.He can do what He wants.Then why doesn't He make a sankalpa : "all the conditioned Jeevatmas become free from Maya.The Jeevatmas shall come to Golok." ?
this is a little snag.Bhagavan doesn't do this becoz He cannot.The Jeevatmas are chit-consious.The jeevatma has an independent will.Obviously,he doesn't have the energies to carry out that will.So the Jeevatma suffers only becoz of his desires and not becoz an omnipotent God makes him suffer.Infact,the Lord has set up a system into which He sends His messengers eveery single second.But the conditioned Jeevas do not want to come to the Lord.Their mind is attached to maya.Only complete change of mind on the part of the Jeeva will enable him to get out of samsara,otherwise,he suffers according to the attachment of his mind."
note that the underlined line signifies that the mind is under full control of the intelligence.
even in shankara's sampraday,the first four steps are : Shanto sant upratas thitikshu.
shant : the first step : means complete control over the mind.Since his mind is under full control,he is called desireless.This is a gyani we're talking about.
In this regard,Shanakra says in his bhakti scripture,"Shudhayati naa antaraatma Krsna padambhoj bhaktimriteh."
The mind cannot be purified/controlled unless we do bhakti.
This is the siddhanta of Vaishnavas.Purification of mind with bhakti.After that,bhagavan arranges for everything.
I frankly did not get the relation between sleep and Brahm.
radhe radhe.
Member
Namaste Ranjeet,
Thank you and I reciprocate.
[/quote]
I frankly did not get the relation between sleep and Brahm.
radhe radhe.
Ranjeet that was the main point. The Brahman's Pragnya is the creation in this side of the deep sleep. This side consits of a dream world and a waking world. On the other side of the Deep Sleep is the Turiyam -Brahman.
Brahman as Pragnya Ghana is the deep sleep, the bridge, also called YogamAya. Lord is tamasaparastat, beyond slumber. You may read Mandukya Upanishad to first understand where Shri Krishna is.
Om
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
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Namaste Bhaktajan
Please explain the contents of jiva as a vector point on XYZ axes. Isn't the jiva beyond time and space really ? Or is it the Supreme Lord's energy in embodiment [while embodied that is] . So is this XYZ 3D space the location of energy vibration called 'a jiva' ?
You are the only one i have read , talking about this XYZ 'space'. Very interesting. I am trying to understand jivaness of the jiva as a pure pure spiritual entity with no traces of manas, buddhi ... or does it mean that
individual pure-mind and pure ID-ego are eternal ?
Vedanta Sutra 4.4.16 says there is no cognition after final release - soul entering the Self as Union of release, moksha (which is considered as impermanent dormancy in BrahmaJyoti by some)
How then does the liberated one "wish" for a spiritual body to serve the Lord ?
Because, today one can be in their own Swetadweep , have a manas-form that they fancy and many times , that the Lord fancies, and know it happens via the mind. That world is more real than this world outside.
But that is before liberation.
Dualism believes there is mind (pure) forever as part of the jiva , but the Vedanta Sutras do not define moksha as having the mind at all , pure or not - VS 4.4.16
http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritua...kara_38332.php
VS 4.4.22 - No return from BrahmaJyoti
http://www.bharatadesam.com/spiritua...kara_38338.php
[Warning in the Bhagvatam : SB 10.2.32 - is talking about those who THINK they are liberated , not those who actually ARE. ]
I am trying to understand this , hence the long question.
Thank You.
~*~*~*~*~
I think i get what Bhaktajanji is saying - more or less ....
The XYZ axes represent the vector point conscious jiva's dham/Ishta Devta, rasa (relationship type), role (typre of service) etc. Then why limit the spiritual 'sky' to 3 dimensions ?
Folding in N dimensions bring more detail , and get closer to the far end of the Dvaita spectrum.
Reducing this to ONE dimension brings us to the far end of Advaita. That involves surrendering of that last final bit of individual ego and hence , Sayujja.
Brahman-Paramatma-Bhagvan is happy with both. There are numerous planes and realms of existence. He provides them owing to the varigatedness as inherent nature of His creation.
Is Prem and bhakti so weak that it is necessary for flavors of Dvaita to resort to bashing up Advaita and saying that Sayujja is temporary ?
With passage of time, poetic expressions and devotional sentiments of prema bhaktas (while praising their Ishta Devta) turn into doctrinal statements and worse - sometimes dogmas. We have to be careful not to get into this Maya. "Time I am" says Bhagvan Sri Krshna.
=================
As a contribution to the main topic of this thread
Here are my 2 cents which i am sure are somewhere there already...
Asking God "why did You create " is like asking a living being "why do you breathe ?"
Creation, eternally is a phenomenon, and an inherent nature of Brahman.
Upanishadic statements like "He willed" and "He wished" are all figurative, poetic, is that not so ?
Jai Sri Krshna
Hari Om
Member
namaste smaranam,
IMO, this is the most excellent point.
I have related a happening of Shri Ramana somewhere in this forum earlier that may add value here.
In Ramanashramam, a song is sung as praise of Ramana. On an occassion, devotees heard Ramana singing the song himself and were surprised as to how Ramana could sing his own glory. Shri Ramana then explained "You find it odd, since you consider Ramana to be embodied this."
"Time I am" says Bhagvan Sri Krshna. This is the most important point.
Thanks and Regards
Om Namah Shivaya
That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.
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