Page 2 of 18 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 175

Thread: Creation and Advaita !

  1. #11
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,729
    Rep Power
    337

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    Usually iccha or kAma is used for desire in the original sanskrit verses.

    Taiitiryopanishad says this: - so-akAmayata | bahusyAm prajAyeyeti|

    nAsadIya sukta explicitly says kAmaH or desire involved in the creation.

    Desire of God is not to satisfy his - but yours! Imagine yourself to be in the hospital ready to undergo a surgery, and just apply the situation if God had no will to act. Unless God had a will and listens to you, his worship gets reduced to nothing. ( an equivalent of bouddham)
    Something doesn't feel right here. If GOD has desires...then why must I shun mine?
    satay

  2. #12
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,729
    Rep Power
    337

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Lord explains this nicely in 4.14

    na mam karmani limpanti
    na me karma-phale sprha
    iti mam yo 'bhijanati
    karmabhir na sa badhyate

    In the previous shloka to this he is 'akartaram'.

    I understand from these verses that as rain supports the production of fruits and leaves so does the LORD support the creation.

    Does rain have will?

    I would say that GOD does not will the creation. This creation is just an 'expansion' of his creative energy.

    Since I am also Shiva bhakta...I have another point of view. This 'creation' is not a creation at all! It is the 'dance' of the dancer.

    Does 'dance' exist ? Can 'dance' be created? Can we separate the 'dance' from the dancer?

    The dance exists until the dancer is dancing...the dancer is dancing so we exist!

    satay

  3. #13
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Posts
    640
    Rep Power
    109

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Something doesn't feel right here. If GOD has desires...then why must I shun mine?
    I know where you're coming from. I guess the question goes back to asking why did creation come to be? The idea that desire (iccha) arose is one sort of explanation, and I've heard this many a time. So, in turn it can be asked, how can there be desire in Him that is considered the fulfillment of all desires? I really would like to hear alternative explanations as well.

    Regards,
    A.



  4. #14
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Posts
    640
    Rep Power
    109

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    I would say that GOD does not will the creation. This creation is just an 'expansion' of his creative energy.

    Since I am also Shiva bhakta...I have another point of view. This 'creation' is not a creation at all! It is the 'dance' of the dancer.

    Does 'dance' exist ? Can 'dance' be created? Can we separate the 'dance' from the dancer?

    The dance exists until the dancer is dancing...the dancer is dancing so we exist!

    And if you believe the dance is eternal/transcending time, there is no creation, no original cause, no beginning, no end, no middle.

    "Just as the roots themselves have no roots, so the cause of all things is itself causeless" - this is from the Sankhya Sutra, I think.



  5. #15
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Something doesn't feel right here. If GOD has desires...then why must I shun mine?
    Do you think God must abandon his desires tuned to your welfare, just because some people think his desires are fulfilled? Without that, why might you even need that God concept?

    God is not selfish to remain content with his eternal bliss. His desires are for others.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnideva View Post
    And if you believe the dance is eternal/transcending time, there is no creation, no original cause, no beginning, no end, no middle.

    "Just as the roots themselves have no roots, so the cause of all things is itself causeless" - this is from the Sankhya Sutra, I think.
    Creation has no beginning or end. But this creation always refer to one of kalpas or cycles. Assiging no cause or no creation would mean one treating scriptural accounts as a fairy tale or imagination. Every bit of vedas talk about Brahman and various devas who have emanated from this creation and their roles in leading us to Brahman, thus effectively shunting out the whole scripture. Extending this principle it invalidates all purANas, itihAsas, the gIta and so on. Ultimately it means you are worshipping dieties who never existed, dont exist or will never exist...none of these have any meaning without according reality to them. Why would bhagavAn incarnate in a world that was never created or existed- so invalidate them as well. So what are we finally left with?
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,729
    Rep Power
    337

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    Do you think God must abandon his desires tuned to your welfare, just because some people think his desires are fulfilled? Without that, why might you even need that God concept?

    God is not selfish to remain content with his eternal bliss. His desires are for others.
    I see your point, however, the problem I have is with the word 'will' and 'creation'.

    Creation implies that there is a separate creator sitting somewhere outside of his creation. Also, it implies that he/she used some material to create his creation. Then the question becomes, where did that material come from? Who created that material? What's the source of that mateiral that was used in this creation by GOD?

    Second, why 'will' it? Why? why? why will it at all? I know what the christian answer it and I will not make a comment on that right now. I want to know what is the reason that GOD 'wills' creation? Is he bored out of his mind?

    The fact is that that creation and the creator are not separate. GOD is all prevading and thus his omnipotence. He can not be separate from 'this' (creation).
    The answer in my mind is:

    'This' just 'is'! There is no separatedness, there is no will to 'create'. there just 'is'.

    Mundaka Upanishad says

    Yathornaabhih Srajate granhate cha yatha
    Tathaaksharaat sambhavatiha viswam

    "As the spider creates the web out of itself and withdraws unto itself from the imperishable comes out the universe".

    This implies that the creator and the creation are one and the same i.e. the matter and energy are not different from each other. What we know as 'creation' is just LORD's creative energy i.e. Shakti which is all prevading.
    Shakti and Lord are not two separate entities.


    Lord explains about this shakti well in Ch. 13 shloka 13 onwards. His vishvaroopam is all pervading.

    13.14
    sarvatah pani-padam tat
    sarvato 'ksi-siro-mukham
    sarvatah srutimal loke
    sarvam avrtya tisthati

    This is my understanding and opinion and obviously if it doesn't match with the main stream hindu or vaishnava teaching, I am not bothered by it.

    As our christian friend nirotu encourages, I am trying to rise above the label here.
    satay

  8. #18
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    This implies that the creator and the creation are one and the same i.e. the matter and energy are not different from each other. What we know as 'creation' is just LORD's creative energy i.e. Shakti which is all prevading.
    Shakti and Lord are not two separate entities.
    Most admit the universe to have sprung from God( Shakti is not a bad word) , not external. But yet, they are not the same( is it the Lord who created the hells to put 'himself' there?). Gita itself supports the creation idea, read ch 8:17-19. Unless Bhagavan was teaching Arjuna some falsehood, this has to be taken as real. Was Arjuna taught falsehood because he was ineligible? No!! He was blessed with his vision the millions cannot even dream of and Arjuna's ineligibility is a lame excuse, as anyone reading 11:53 and 54 know Arjuna was the most exalted of devotees. 16.19-20 must reveal the seriousness in this creation of God showing it is as more than a joke or mere play. ( a God that displays his Shakti to put throw himself into long terms hells!).
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    Govinda Lokam
    Age
    45
    Posts
    738
    Rep Power
    356

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    Creation implies that there is a separate creator sitting somewhere outside of his creation. Also, it implies that he/she used some material to create his creation. Then the question becomes, where did that material come from? Who created that material? What's the source of that mateiral that was used in this creation by GOD?
    The common answers are vivartA and pariNAma.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    March 2006
    Location
    mrityuloka
    Age
    52
    Posts
    3,729
    Rep Power
    337

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan View Post
    Most admit the universe to have sprung from God( Shakti is not a bad word) , not external. But yet, they are not the same( is it the Lord who created the hells to put 'himself' there?). Gita itself supports the creation idea, read ch 8:17-19. Unless Bhagavan was teaching Arjuna some falsehood, this has to be taken as real. Was Arjuna taught falsehood because he was ineligible? No!! He was blessed with his vision the millions cannot even dream of and Arjuna's ineligibility is a lame excuse, as anyone reading 11:53 and 54 know Arjuna was the most exalted of devotees. 16.19-20 must reveal the seriousness in this creation of God showing it is as more than a joke or mere play. ( a God that displays his Shakti to put throw himself into long terms hells!).
    I am not saying that the world doesn't exist, I am saying that it exists not as a separate creation. It IS GOD himself or in other words, GOD himself is 'this' material world + whatever other things he is that we don't know.

    If there is such a material place known as 'hell' then GOD MUST be there as well because otherwise, he is not Omnipotent!

    Are you saying that he is not all prevading and thus not omnipotent?

    also, where did GOD get the material to create this and other worlds? What is the source of the 'material' used?
    satay

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •