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Thread: Creation and Advaita !

  1. #21

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by saidevo
    The answer to the purpose of creation, that is advaita becoming dvaita, thereby seeming to dilute or lose its identity, can only be inferred by man, from his day to day experiences and habitual acts.

    First of all, who are you 'nirotu'? Are you your body? Your soul? Or both, perhaps? If you are a soul then why did you acquire a body? Do you know about the time you were just a pure soul (advaita) and then took a body (dvaita)? Do you know the personal history of your own soul?

    Dear Saidevo:

    I have said this before and let me reiterate. While reality is “holistic”, in a discussion forum like ours we have to focus on a single viewpoint at a time. While I am addressing the intent and purpose behind creation, the nature of question you are raising (“who are you?”) falls under the guise of “Atma Vichara” or “Self-Probing”. While your reply is extremely profound and thought-provoking and noble path in itself, it is not the part of my discussion. While both represent the realities of the Universe they are from different point of view. You are mixing the two: the inward journey with creation.

    Granted, they represent the same reality in their ultimate sense, for now let us stick to the aspect I am posing. It is like “light” that can be described in Physics either having “wave nature” or “Particle nature”. While both represent the light, I am addressing one aspect, say particle nature. Let us not jump around but stick to particle aspect. On the other hand, if you want to shift to “Atma Vichara” or “Self-Probing”, let us agree on it first.

    Let us explore the intent and purpose behind creation and perhaps, one could have insight into this that may eventually lead to “Atma Vichara”. I think one does not have to self-realize to know the creation. Although, these are two different approaches to reality, atma-vichara, in my view, relates discovering higher self in you and not outside of you: creation. Ultimately, it may lead you to a state of advaita but that does not answer the question of dvaita. Rather than pre-impose “self-realization” as a pre-condition to the knowledge of creation, I would submit that if I understand the intent and purpose, I will then know myself.


    Blessings,

  2. #22

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by Sudarshan
    His creation is for the welfare of others, who coexist eternally. For some mysterious reason, innumerable number of souls have become ignorant of their true nature. By creating this world, God has given us an opportunity to get rid of ignorance.
    Dear Sudarshan:

    You seem to present creation as an after thought in God’s experiment. I have hard time understanding that. This kind of thinking leads to a deadly cathch-22.

    Your view is that God somehow assumed there were mistakes or defects that needed rectification. What came first: creation or mistakes? Your view assumes defects already existed in God’s mind. I view it differently. The intent and purpose far precedes the maya or ignorance came into being. We are looking into that intent and purpose and not what happened after perfect creation as in case of Adam and Eve.


    Let us look toward slightly higher intent and purpose (befitting of God) that might have been the drive behind creation.

    Blessings,

  3. #23

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    . . . since you alone had a direct talk with God about his intent.
    Dear Atanu:

    I wish you were right on the button on this statement that “I have had this direct talk with God.” Just remember my friend that if have had the talk with “God”, I would not be spending so much time on this discussion forum as I would be repository of all answers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atanu Banerjee
    And your writing above is a just short of implying as if Advaita ascribes malicious intent to the creation. Just short.


    I am sorry that you implied it as an attack on Advaita! Not at all !! All I was meaning to say is: regardless the intent the creation is always good because God is good. I am sorry if it was implied any other way.

    Once again, all I am looking to is an open minded, honest exchange of thoughts and ideas on a clearly defined topic of spiritual nature.

    Blessings,

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    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Dear nirotu,

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post

    You seem to present creation as an after thought in God’s experiment. I have hard time understanding that. This kind of thinking leads to a deadly cathch-22.
    You seem to be missing the point that almost every Hindu school do not admit a principle independent of God. Creation is not considered an one time event - but as an eternal cycle of creation and destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Your view is that God somehow assumed there were mistakes or defects that needed rectification. What came first: creation or mistakes? Your view assumes defects already existed in God’s mind. I view it differently. The intent and purpose far precedes the maya or ignorance came into being. We are looking into that intent and purpose and not what happened after perfect creation as in case of Adam and Eve.
    When we say that both creation and 'misktakes' are beginningless, there is no way you can ascribe a good reason. Hinduism does not say God created anything external to himself. The universe is a 'transformation' of God himself. Soul was also never created by God - it is beginningless. When you say beginningless, it can be taken to be beyond notions of time or as minus infinity. The soul is not considered to be separate from God( except by very few Hindus). So the reason for 'mistake' is unknown. Didn't you notice that almost every one said it is mysterious. It is not even known to the creator Brahma. But the mistake is there and glaringly frightening - we need to 'work' to resolve it or else you would remain caught in the 'mistake'. Since God cannot be responsible for the mistakes, the mistake is obviously in the soul. But this situation cannot come about in perfect Advaita, but only in a dual/non-dual framework.



    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu
    Let us look toward slightly higher intent and purpose (befitting of God) that might have been the drive behind creation.

    Blessings,
    God, as understood by everyone has no desires for himself ( because he has infinite bliss) and would have no intent whatsoever. Since creation happened and we exist to be discussing it, let us grant that God indeed created. So what would be the only reason? It is to rectify the 'mistakes' of others, where no personal desire of God is involved. It is the nobility of God and his causeless mercy that has caused creation, without which you would have no scope to rectify your mistakes and return back.( without creation you would be stranded in the avyakta(unmanifested) as during praLaya for ever). The mistake of the soul is of course its seeking independence and assuming itself to be apart from God - which every man continues to do, to this day.

    Any other reason like God wanting love, obedience and worship of creation, or wanting to enjoy his powers or wanting slaves etc, fall flat on the face, and it questions the very perfected nature of God.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by satay View Post
    I am not saying that the world doesn't exist, I am saying that it exists not as a separate creation. It IS GOD himself or in other words, GOD himself is 'this' material world + whatever other things he is that we don't know.

    If there is such a material place known as 'hell' then GOD MUST be there as well because otherwise, he is not Omnipotent!

    Are you saying that he is not all prevading and thus not omnipotent?

    also, where did GOD get the material to create this and other worlds? What is the source of the 'material' used?
    That the world and Brahman cant be identical is easily proved, as doing so attributes all the pitfalls to God. That is why, the world has to be considered as either separate or as a dharma ( not svarUpa). Dvaitins take the former view, while VAs take the latter. God is much beyond the world, this is a microscopic part of him. It is customary to say the universe is one fourth of God while his three fourths are beyond - same view upheld in the Gita, Purusa suktam etc.

    The relation between God and the universe is like man's soul and his body. A living man has an indwelling soul, whose nature is divine. But his body is not 'so much' and consequently undergoes death and decay. But the soul is not affected by the body. Similarly, God has this universe for his body, but Atma is unaffected as in the above case.
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Namaste nirotu,

    Alright, let me try to do some generic, abstract thinking on the subject of Creation and Advaita and learn in the process of discussions. When atma vicara is easier than atma sadhana, why shun it?!

    My impressions on your points, one by one:

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    It looks like an oxymoron to me. If Advaita is all there is, then there was no necessity of creation!
    Advaita will always be there, because it is the be-all and the end-all. In spite of its existence, creation happened, but this creation is not at all different from Advaita, because Advaita lurks behind all creation. It is the point of return for all creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    If the starting point and ending point of a man’s life is the same (Advaita), I think that the process of creation itself takes on a new meaning that does overshadow Advaita.
    1. Does creation overshadow Advaita? The question has the answer in itself.

    Yes, creation does overshadow Advaita, not in the sense that it is more important and powerful than Advaita, but in the literal meaning that it casts a shadow, darkens, obscures Advaita.

    2. 'Creation itself takes on a new meaning.'

    Does it? What is its meaning? That the created should suffer under the yokes of karma? If the manifested life is better than the unmanifest, then there is no need to get beyond the cycle of rebirths, whereas in reality every human soul wants absolute freedom, which is its real nature! Not just the human soul, everything that lives has this upward evolution to its point of return, as its earmark.

    3. 'The starting point and the ending point of human life is the same.'

    The great saint and poet TiruvaLLuvar said: "Death is like sleeping; and birth like waking up." We have our own little periods of Turiya in deep sleep everyday and get back to the state of Advaita, which is our natural state. But then we wake up everyday, to be born again for that day, you know why? It is because of the inherent tRSNA or thirst for living, which is not a desire, but an impetus born out of five kleshas: avidya or ignorance, asmita or the I-ness, ragha or the attraction, dvesha or the aversion, and abhinivesha - or fear or resistance to loss.

    Among the five kleshas, avidya is the main cause for the vrittis. Because of avidya we mistake the unblemished bliss and peace of deep sleep or Turiya to be a loss of identity, and, impelled by tRSNA we wake up to the charms of the daily life, however dissatisfied we would become when the day closes. It is the same with the cycle of rebirths.

    In the Advaitic view, it is actually the opposite. Turiya is the real state and nature of a human soul and this wakeful life is a dream.

    Even though deep sleep has an element of Turiya in it, both cannot be equated. Turiya is state of bliss obtained without a break in consciousness whereas in deep sleep there is a break in consciousness. My comparison of these two states here is just to enunciate a point.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    In light of this reality that creation indeed took place, where does Advaita address this reality?
    Advaita addresses creation as Maya. Since Brahman is both prakruti and purusha, Maya is the inherent force of Purusha with which he impregnates Prakruti and starts the process of creation as an emanation from himself. Maya is not an eternal unreality (adyanta asat) but a conditional reality. Thus creation as Maya is only a conditional reality, whereas Brahman who is behind it is the eternal reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    In my view Advaita truly limits its ability to address this point in a meaningful way!
    The view that Advaita limits its ability or shirks to address the reality of creation is flawed. As I said above, Advaita does address creation as Maya, which in no way limits its ability. Advaita is the be-ness and May is the be-ing.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Einstein’s famous quote "God does not play dice" is very meaningful in that it implies there is an intent and specific purpose to His creation, which certainly is not with any malicious intent. From an Advaitic standpoint this intent and purpose is lost completely when God created us!
    1. 'Creation implies there is an intent and specific purpose.'

    As to the intent and specific purpose of creation, let us quote here William Shakespeare, the great poet, who looked beyond the dogma of his own days and grasped the sense of Advaita.

    Shakespeare sings in As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143):
    All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players:
    They have their exits and their entrances;
    And one man in his time plays many parts,
    His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
    Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
    And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
    And shining morning face, creeping like snail
    Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
    Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
    Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
    Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
    Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
    Seeking the bubble reputation
    Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
    In fair round belly with good capon lined,
    With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
    Full of wise saws and modern instances;
    And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
    Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
    With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
    His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
    For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
    Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
    And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
    That ends this strange eventful history,
    Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
    Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.
    And he sings in The Tempest, 4.1.148:
    Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
    As I foretold you, were all spirits and
    Are melted into air, into thin air:
    And, like the baseless fabric of this vision,
    The cloud-capp'd towers, the gorgeous palaces,
    The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
    Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve
    And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
    Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
    As dreams are made on, and our little life
    Is rounded with a sleep.
    God may not play dice, but he does stage a play, a play of story and dance, of vision, sound and music and enacts with parts of himself as actors and settings. This is the dance of Shiva. Certainly, there can't be any malicious intent or purpose to this play of creation! It is just a lila, a sport of God. If the actors think that their stage life is the real life, forgetting their actual selves, it is only their ignorance and mistake, not God's.

    In Advaita, this would mean that Brahman through the sparks of life he emanates as jivatmas is the eternal enactor, actor and watcher of the play of creation. The play is only a massive dream, the collection of individual dreams of jivatmas that they lead a separate life from their source. This is the reason that sadhakas are advised to live their present moment to the full in a way that advances them spiritually, but to otherwise simply sit and watch without any thoughts of partaking the play of life.

    Our karmas and sufferings will lessen and burn out, the moment we start realizing that our wakeful life is only a dream and that our real nature and life is what is obtained in Turiya.

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Therefore, we cannot deny that Dvaita has come into being at the moment of creation.
    Yes, Dvaita comes into being with creation, but only as Maya, the conditional reality. It only manifests and does not negate Advaita. So long as a jivatma wants a role to play, forgetting that it is only an actor, there will be Dvaita. When an actor realizes that it is only play but he needs must go on playing the roles assigned, he would rise above the sufferings destined in the script. And when he has really finished his life of roles, he would sit with the audience and just watch the play. Here again, the actor, the stage, the audience all are parts of Brahman in Advaita, different only their states, seatings and settings.

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    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Dear Atanu:

    -------
    I am sorry that you implied it as an attack on Advaita! Not at all !! -----Blessings,

    Dear NIrotu Namaste,

    This is what you said:

    ------- there is an intent and specific purpose to His creation, which certainly is not with any malicious intent. From an Advaitic standpoint this intent and purpose is lost completely when God created us!
    I said that your statement is just short of meaning that as if Advaitins ascribe mailcious intent to gods creation.

    As per my understanding, your sentence simply should have read "---there is auspiciuos intent in creation, which seems to get lost in advaitic perspective".


    And now you say the following:

    I am sorry that you implied it as an attack on Advaita!

    Nirotu what do you mean? "Atanu implied" or "Atanu perceived"?

    Either there is some problem with language or you take most of us as naive.

    You have asked me to be honest and I expect you to be honest. Tell me whether these are expression problems (which most non-english people are prone to have, including me).

    Or tell us what you actually meant?


    If there is a problem with language and perception then where is advaita and where is Dvaita. Nirotu, be honest.

    Regards,

    Om Namah Shivayya
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

  8. #28

    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    My Dear Atanu:

    I am deeply sorry if the statement is misconstrued by you. Honestly, I did not mean what you perceive it to be. I wanted to say was “God’s purpose, whatever may be, is always good and not malicious”. Perhaps, it should have been correctly presented as you have shown. When language (especially English) is used as a tool to communicate our feelings and thoughts, sometimes it backfires due to misinterpretation, may it be my lack of skills. Again, somehow extrapolating to mean totally different is not fair, when in fact I am apologizing for that misunderstanding.

    Notwithstanding my apology you seem to drag it to a different conclusion that is disheartening to say the least. Again, sincerely all I can do is to apologize.

    Now that my intent is clear, perhaps we can spend time to explore God’s intent!

    Blessings,

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    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    Now that my intent is clear, perhaps we can spend time to explore God’s intent!
    Why dont you start with your view? Let us keep the unknowables to a minimum ( that is, using terminologies like mystery) and try to see through God's intent. Hope you have seen my quotations from mANDUkya that rules out creation being a dream, a sport without cause, an illusion, a drama and so forth. Essentially, start with God willed creation, that is the universe exists merely due to the will of God. Now, what would be the role of will for a perfect being to create?
    Guard your Dharma, Burn the Myth, Promote the Truth, Crush the superstition.

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    Re: Creation and Advaita !

    Quote Originally Posted by nirotu View Post
    My Dear Atanu:

    I am deeply sorry if the statement is misconstrued by you. Honestly, I did not mean what you perceive it to be. I wanted to say was “God’s purpose, whatever may be, is always good and not malicious”. Perhaps, it should have been correctly presented as you have shown. When language (especially English) is used as a tool to communicate our feelings and thoughts, sometimes it backfires due to misinterpretation, may it be my lack of skills. Again, somehow extrapolating to mean totally different is not fair, when in fact I am apologizing for that misunderstanding.

    Notwithstanding my apology you seem to drag it to a different conclusion that is disheartening to say the least. Again, sincerely all I can do is to apologize.

    Now that my intent is clear, perhaps we can spend time to explore God’s intent!

    Blessings,

    Dear Nirotu,

    Now that I have got the thing clarified, I would say that it was not your fault at being wrongly perceived and it was certainly not my fault at wrongly perceiving. Your 'deep sorry' is not required. And neither I am dragging the matter. That again is your perception.

    If I dragged, it was just to show what perceptions are. Just give a little time to this.


    Now examine again. You said this:

    ------ which certainly is not with any malicious intent. From an Advaitic standpoint this intent and purpose is lost completely when God created us!

    Note the certainty with which you decide about Advaita. Is it not a definitive statement?

    Next you said:

    I wish you were right on the button on this statement that “I have had this direct talk with God.” Just remember my friend that if have had the talk with “God”, I would not be spending so much time on this discussion forum as I would be repository of all answers.
    .


    Now again, be honest as you have requested me to be. Be honest and compare your knowing with certainty that 'advaita is absolutely wrong on the knowledge of intent of creation' on one hand and 'your wish to have direct talk with God and be a repository of all answers' on the other.

    Are these two compatible? Be honest, Nirotu Ji. God loves honesty. Who has told you with such certainty that advaita is absolutely wrong on the intent of creation? Do you know the intent of creation that you can be so certain?. I feel that only God can tell about his intention. We may all guess, may be?


    With respect and regards. I expect your honest answer.


    I assure you that I am not dragging the matter. I am driving to some enquiry. Being honest will benefit both of us and all readers. Enquiry of Brahman is Auspicious.

    Om. Let the enquiry be auspicious.

    Om Namah Shivayya
    Last edited by atanu; 12 January 2007 at 12:13 PM.
    That which is without letters (parts) is the Fourth, beyond apprehension through ordinary means, the cessation of the phenomenal world, the auspicious and the non-dual. Thus Om is certainly the Self. He who knows thus enters the Self by the Self.

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