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Thread: slavery in Abrahamic religions

  1. #11

    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    deleted

    never mind
    Last edited by UniversalLove; 17 November 2011 at 09:08 PM.

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    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Namaste,

    On reading Tikkun's post, I feel that Abrahimic religions tend to control their adherents a little too much and they happily follow it all. How to have a hair-cut, how to shave or not to shave ... etc. etc.

    It is not that such customs have not been part of other religious groups at some point but most of the groups have decided to adopt logically correct ways discarding the old ones and some religious groups apparently stick to such old ways even if there is no valid and good explanation.

    Is this spirituality ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tikkun Olam View Post
    (TouchedbytheLord: we can cut our hair, and we're only not supposed to shave with a blade. The reason being we're not supposed to put a blade to our bodies, ever. I shave with an electric razor, which is acceptable because it does not cut the skin. I follow the whole law, I'm not a hypocrite.)
    I was referring to Christians who cherry-pick and twist the Law to suit their own agendas. They actually know nothing about it, yet think they know more about it than an observant and pious Jew does.

    Btw, no snarkiness intended, how does an observant Jew go about fulfilling the requirements for sacrifice (burnt offerings) as specified? Has that been replaced with something symbolic that fulfills the requirements? Or is it also open to interpretation?
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

  4. #14

    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Namaste Tikkun Olam,

    It is of interest here to highlight that; key to understanding certain ideas of the Vedas and other Hindu scripture, is the realisation that knowledge is transcendental, it exists out side of these confines of time and language.

    praNAma

    mana
    Last edited by Mana; 18 November 2011 at 02:09 PM.

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    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Hi Tikkun Olam. I know this is trivial but - every electric razor that I have owned had blades within it and the blades touch my skin enough to give me a close shave and occasionally draw blood. I am confident that if I examined the hair trimmings that I would find bits of skin among them. For awhile I used a depilatory but that annoyed me for a different reason ... now I wear a beard most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tikkun Olam View Post
    ... (TouchedbytheLord: we can cut our hair, and we're only not supposed to shave with a blade. The reason being we're not supposed to put a blade to our bodies, ever. I shave with an electric razor, which is acceptable because it does not cut the skin. I follow the whole law, I'm not a hypocrite.) ...
    Last edited by R Gitananda; 18 November 2011 at 01:33 PM.
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

  6. #16

    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritualseeker View Post
    Namaste,

    Thank you for the explanation. I do not see how this makes anything better. Women and children were taken slaves and many for sure had to experience trauma from this. There is no sugar coating it. It reminds me of Muslims trying to state that since Muslims cloth and feed the slaves, then it is not such a bad thing.

    The god of the Judaism allowed for slaughter in his name and the taking of captives. Quite frankly, god ordered terrorism.
    There are two concepts here. The concept of criminals, and the concept of war. War is where we attacked other people, and criminals were our own people. Try and keep in mind that they are two separate things.

    And you should to understand that we are a very self-critical people. One of the things about our history that is different from the other ancient histories is that ours makes us look bad. Not just in one place, but throughout the whole thing. Most other people proudly bolstered their virtues and triumphs, but we left all the warts and boils in there. As for warfare, we look back and agree that things were more brutal back then. But the reason we keep it there is to learn from it. We don't claim that God commanded us to kill, but that we decided to. That makes us no different from other nations. All nations go to war, all nations kill. We were a nomadic group with no land, and we were tired of camping in the desert with no food, so we attacked Canaan and conquered the land. It's not pretty, but that's how war works.

    I will say that since then, we have been known to be an exceptionally peaceful people. No where in the last 3000 years is there a record of us attacking anyone.

    And we all know that everyone has blood on their hands somewhere at sometime if you look hard enough. You're not an exception to that rule, either. I hope people don't try to play that game, because if you do, you can't be anything in this world. Everyone and everything is then evil. For us, you're talking about only a single act that happened more than 3000 years ago, and that we never repeated.

    Going back to the concept of servants I mentioned above, I do think it was a good system, not a bad one. Compare it to what we have now. Today if someone commits a crime, we spend all this money to throw them in jail, take away their freedoms, and force them to work for next to nothing. That sounds horrible too, doesn't it? What we had back then was a system where you worked directly to pay off your debts to the person you wronged, not the state. And you had more freedoms than people do today, because you weren't confined to live in a box called a jail cell (not to mention today people spend 20, 30, 40 years in prison, whereas back then the maximum amount of "time" you could have was 6 years!). If we could get rid of today's prison system and replace it with that one, I think it would be a huge improvement for a number a reasons.

    I do not know what is truly in your mind, but I find it a bit arrogant when one tries to claim that they are not hypocrites. Surely, there must be some type of flaw within you? Unless perhaps you realized you are not your changing personality. Perhaps the one who fails to follow the law, yet always tries his best and does not boast, perhaps that one is not a hypocrite. This is not an attack on you, for perhaps you are not a hypocrite, its just an observation I am making. That observation may be wrong.

    Om Namah Shivaya
    That was to TouchedbytheLord. It was in reference to doing things like eating kosher food and not using a blade or getting tattoos and all these other things that Christians usually don't follow.

    And as for the burnt offerings, they are no longer done since the destruction of the temple. They have been symbolically replaced by prayers. Similarly, the Samaritans (who never left the land) on Passover still sacrifice a lamb, whereas we represent it with having a Seder Plate. These decisions are known as our Oral Law. It's considered that the authoritative law is the one held by the majority. This is why you're considered a Jew if your mother is Jewish. No where is that written, but it became the accepted rabbinical view after much debate.

    And the electric razor- that's actually another example. People decided that since they actually work like scissors (which basically trim your beard very very closely) and trimming with scissors is okay, than electric razors are okay. Believe me, people never stop debating these things. It's a combination of written tradition that doesn't change and the oral tradition that always changes that has kept us alive. If we lived in a bubble from the word and never changed, we would have suffocated and died out. If we were immediately accepting of every culture around us, we would have been assimilated and vanished. If you wanted to know how we survive, that's the secret!

    And finally@devotee: you're right. That's the same thing the Geeks said about us. They couldn't understand. We didn't eat the food they liked, we didn't build any statues. (The called it an "inhospitable" way of life). One of the most common complaints about us is that we didn't do work on Saturday. Both the Greeks and Romans decided to attack us then (a couple centuries apart, though). Our people didn't even fight back, they just let themselves get slaughtered. The Greeks laughed at us, the Romans laughed. But surprisingly, they're extinct and we're not! We do these crazy things because we think that we're defending something important. We're protecting our history, and we have strongly intense feelings for our history.

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    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Namaste Tikkun,

    Quote Originally Posted by Tikkun Olam View Post
    And finally@devotee: you're right. That's the same thing the Geeks said about us. They couldn't understand. We didn't eat the food they liked, we didn't build any statues. (The called it an "inhospitable" way of life). One of the most common complaints about us is that we didn't do work on Saturday. Both the Greeks and Romans decided to attack us then (a couple centuries apart, though). Our people didn't even fight back, they just let themselves get slaughtered. The Greeks laughed at us, the Romans laughed. But surprisingly, they're extinct and we're not! We do these crazy things because we think that we're defending something important. We're protecting our history, and we have strongly intense feelings for our history.
    Whatever the Greeks and others did against Jews is sad & deplorable & cannot be pardoned. However, this Jews' thinking that it is all for a great cause ... needs some serious thinking by Jew Scholars. Just think ... why should God like us to suffer ? There is no reason. Sometime we make some self-imposed rules and feel that we are following God's orders. You should suffer just because you are a Jew ... doesn't make any sense. Some rules ... mostly social ones are valid at some point of time due to some peculiar situation prevailing at that time ... we should not keep clinging to something which has outlived its purpose. We need a paddle and a boat to cross the river ... why keep it carrying on our head once we have crossed the river ?

    Whether it is right or wrong or even relevant in today's times can be decided by attaining One-ness with God ... Hindus have relied on advices of God-realised saints to keep changing their social customs from time to time. I don't know whether there is any such system in Judaism or not.

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Namaste,

    There are two concepts here. The concept of criminals, and the concept of war. War is where we attacked other people, and criminals were our own people. Try and keep in mind that they are two separate things.

    And you should to understand that we are a very self-critical people. One of the things about our history that is different from the other ancient histories is that ours makes us look bad. Not just in one place, but throughout the whole thing. Most other people proudly bolstered their virtues and triumphs, but we left all the warts and boils in there. As for warfare, we look back and agree that things were more brutal back then. But the reason we keep it there is to learn from it. We don't claim that God commanded us to kill, but that we decided to. That makes us no different from other nations. All nations go to war, all nations kill. We were a nomadic group with no land, and we were tired of camping in the desert with no food, so we attacked Canaan and conquered the land. It's not pretty, but that's how war works.
    I am glad that you see that the history was bad. Now I don't understand what you mean when you say that, 'We don't claim that God cammanded us to kill, but that we decided to." I think this is a mistake on your part. Did not God order Moses, Solomon, and other prophets to wage war? When I was a muslim I read an article by a Islamic Mujahid which was titled 'Solomon was a Terrorist' In this work he quoted some 'historical' references that are also in the bible of how Solomon was committing terrorism. Moses' wars are just as gruesome. We cannot deny that the Judaic deity is a deity who sanctions wars. We can say that this is just the way things are for people, but that does not make it any better.

    I will say that since then, we have been known to be an exceptionally peaceful people. No where in the last 3000 years is there a record of us attacking anyone.

    And we all know that everyone has blood on their hands somewhere at sometime if you look hard enough. You're not an exception to that rule, either. I hope people don't try to play that game, because if you do, you can't be anything in this world. Everyone and everything is then evil. For us, you're talking about only a single act that happened more than 3000 years ago, and that we never repeated.
    What? I am confused. 3,000 years ago and was never repeated. I am not sure if you are aware of the fact that Israel as a nation has been committing terrorism on a daily basis against the people of Palestine. Now I suspect someone would say that Palestinian terrorist attack Israel. First I want to make it clear that someone walking onto a bus or a cafe with explosives and detonates is a terrorist and its not justified in any way shape or form. Secondly, I will say that shelling cities, forbidding aid, shooting at news media (including non-muslim media), and assassinations are terrorism. Its interesting that Israel is a nation that has NUCLEAR WEAPONS. People will say, it is to defend against Muslims. So in order to defend against Muslims you have to have nuclear weapons that could destroy entire cities, damage the Earth, and cause a chain of cause and effect that will create generations of deformity and illness.

    Let us not forget that the main rallying of Israeli soldiers are biblical stories and prophecy. Thousands have been murdered by Israeli soldiers in the name of religion. The atrocities are not something just in the ancient past, but are alive today.


    Going back to the concept of servants I mentioned above, I do think it was a good system, not a bad one. Compare it to what we have now. Today if someone commits a crime, we spend all this money to throw them in jail, take away their freedoms, and force them to work for next to nothing. That sounds horrible too, doesn't it? What we had back then was a system where you worked directly to pay off your debts to the person you wronged, not the state. And you had more freedoms than people do today, because you weren't confined to live in a box called a jail cell (not to mention today people spend 20, 30, 40 years in prison, whereas back then the maximum amount of "time" you could have was 6 years!). If we could get rid of today's prison system and replace it with that one, I think it would be a huge improvement for a number a reasons.
    No offense, but I would not like to be a non-jew facing penalties under a Jewish system, no matter how much one may sugar coat it.

    That was to TouchedbytheLord. It was in reference to doing things like eating kosher food and not using a blade or getting tattoos and all these other things that Christians usually don't follow.
    Yes I know of the reference you made the statement in, but I think it smells the hint of arrogance. You are better by following certain laws that will not give anyone salvation. Perhaps you may feel better than Christians, but the root of both Christian belief in Christ and the Jewish belief in 'God' all comes from pagan traditions. It is unfortunate that we are not taught in schools about the origins of Judaism and Christianity. It would save a lot of grief for people if they but knew.


    Om Namah Shivaya

  9. #19
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    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    "Let us not forget that the main rallying of Israeli soldiers are biblical stories and prophecy.
    Thousands have been murdered by Israeli soldiers in the name of religion. The atrocities
    are not something just in the ancient past, but are alive today."

    namaste

    Much to the consternation of many secular Israeli's, orthodoxy is on the rise
    in Israel. That, combined with the stockpiling of nuclear weapons is very unsettling.

    Hari Aum


    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritualseeker View Post
    Namaste,



    I am glad that you see that the history was bad. Now I don't understand what you mean when you say that, 'We don't claim that God cammanded us to kill, but that we decided to." I think this is a mistake on your part. Did not God order Moses, Solomon, and other prophets to wage war? When I was a muslim I read an article by a Islamic Mujahid which was titled 'Solomon was a Terrorist' In this work he quoted some 'historical' references that are also in the bible of how Solomon was committing terrorism. Moses' wars are just as gruesome. We cannot deny that the Judaic deity is a deity who sanctions wars. We can say that this is just the way things are for people, but that does not make it any better.



    What? I am confused. 3,000 years ago and was never repeated. I am not sure if you are aware of the fact that Israel as a nation has been committing terrorism on a daily basis against the people of Palestine. Now I suspect someone would say that Palestinian terrorist attack Israel. First I want to make it clear that someone walking onto a bus or a cafe with explosives and detonates is a terrorist and its not justified in any way shape or form. Secondly, I will say that shelling cities, forbidding aid, shooting at news media (including non-muslim media), and assassinations are terrorism. Its interesting that Israel is a nation that has NUCLEAR WEAPONS. People will say, it is to defend against Muslims. So in order to defend against Muslims you have to have nuclear weapons that could destroy entire cities, damage the Earth, and cause a chain of cause and effect that will create generations of deformity and illness.

    Let us not forget that the main rallying of Israeli soldiers are biblical stories and prophecy. Thousands have been murdered by Israeli soldiers in the name of religion. The atrocities are not something just in the ancient past, but are alive today.




    No offense, but I would not like to be a non-jew facing penalties under a Jewish system, no matter how much one may sugar coat it.



    Yes I know of the reference you made the statement in, but I think it smells the hint of arrogance. You are better by following certain laws that will not give anyone salvation. Perhaps you may feel better than Christians, but the root of both Christian belief in Christ and the Jewish belief in 'God' all comes from pagan traditions. It is unfortunate that we are not taught in schools about the origins of Judaism and Christianity. It would save a lot of grief for people if they but knew.


    Om Namah Shivaya
    With our ears may we hear what is good.
    With our eyes may we behold thy righteousness.
    Tranquil in body, may we who worship thee find rest.

    AUM Peace Peace Peace

  10. #20

    Re: slavery in Abrahamic religions

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Tikkun,



    Whatever the Greeks and others did against Jews is sad & deplorable & cannot be pardoned. However, this Jews' thinking that it is all for a great cause ... needs some serious thinking by Jew Scholars. Just think ... why should God like us to suffer ? There is no reason. Sometime we make some self-imposed rules and feel that we are following God's orders. You should suffer just because you are a Jew ... doesn't make any sense. Some rules ... mostly social ones are valid at some point of time due to some peculiar situation prevailing at that time ... we should not keep clinging to something which has outlived its purpose. We need a paddle and a boat to cross the river ... why keep it carrying on our head once we have crossed the river ?

    Whether it is right or wrong or even relevant in today's times can be decided by attaining One-ness with God ... Hindus have relied on advices of God-realised saints to keep changing their social customs from time to time. I don't know whether there is any such system in Judaism or not.

    OM
    There is such a system. I just described it above. It's called the Oral tradition. We compare the Written and Oral to the Sun and Moon. The Sun is the same everyday, never changing. The Moon however is different every day. It is also a reflection of the Sun- yet even though the Sun doesn't change, and the Moon is a reflection of it, the Moon changes. That's the Oral tradition.

    I talked about suffering in the other thread, but my point was it does happen for a reason. It's a more complicated issue than you might think at first. I don't want to go into it again (we also have no choice- Jews who renounce their Jewishness and their history suffer as much as religious Jews). Instead of that, I will leave you with words that our scholar's believe to have described the ideal man;

    "Those who are insulted but do not insult, hear their shame but do not reply, act out of love and rejoice in suffering, of them it is written: 'And those who love Him will be as the Sun in it's splendor'."

    Interesting how they included "rejoice in suffering". What a strange concept.



    And @Spiritualseeker: I would think that Indians were full aware of the kinds of terrorists the Islamists are. They hate both of us, don't they? Is it okay for India to defend herself against the terrorists? Is it not okay for America to have nuclear weapons to guard off attacks? Then why don't these basic rights of self-defense apply for Israel, too?

    Also, the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with religion. In the 1800's Jews wanted to leave Europe because of all the antisemitism. They started to move back to what is now know as Israel, and were a significant minority in the early 1900's. They continued to increase there until the 1920's (which was supported by the UN voting on the British Mandate at the time). By the 30's when the Nazi's came to power, they tried to move there in larger numbers, which is when Arabs, under the influence of Hitler, started restricting immigration (there were no issues before then). Even America at this time (from about 1920-1950) had laws stating that Jews couldn't come in. These were people who were literally pushed out of every place they tried to go. They were forced back to Europe, where most of them perished in concentration camps. The survivors after 1945 tried to go back to their homelands but were usually met with violence. Some desperately tried to go to America, but Truman turned the boats around. With zero options left, they built up the state we call Israel, fulfilling the promise made to them decades before by the UN. I know this well since I had family who died in Europe in the 1930's and 40's. The only reason I'm here is because some of them were lucking enough to make it into America before 1920 when they were still allowed to. The question is, does this group of people have a right to live? Can they stay in one place without being kicked out? Can they defend themselves from terrorists who want nothing more than their complete disappearance? Israel asks for nothing than to protect themselves and stay where they are. If they were going by the Bible, then they would actually be asking for MORE land. Modern day Jordan was once a part of ancient Israel, but you don't see us asking for that land, do you? That's because their existence and borders are not defined by the Bible, but by history and politics.

    To give you an idea of how much these politics preceded WWII, this is something written by Mark Twain (not a Jew) in the year 1898 (50 years before the state of Israel!), "Dr. Herzl has a clear insight into the value of that. Have you heard of his plan? He wishes to gather the Jews of the world together in Palestine, with a government of their own - under the suzerainty of the Sultan, I suppose. At the Convention of Berne, last year, there were delegates from everywhere, and the proposal was received with decided favor. I am not the Sultan, and I am not objecting; but if that concentration of the cunningest brains in the world were going to be made in a free country (bar Scotland), I think it would be politic to stop it. It will not be well to let the race find out its strength. If the horses knew theirs, we should not ride any more."

    And btw, I think this thread is starting to get hijacked, and I don't want to go off into the million different topics you raised here. Not that they're not interesting or that I don't want to, but this thread will probably be blown up if we talked about all of it.

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