The Concept of Killing

[Tikkun Olam]

This has been especially on my mind recently. I want to ask about it here...

There are many kinds of killing; murder, self-defense, suicide, abortion, and so on. How do you make the distinction between them?

I think we can all agree that murder is wrong, and killing in self-defense is acceptable, but...

Would you support abortion?

Would you help someone commit suicide if they're old and in pain? Is suicide ever okay?

Are their any references in Hindu scriptures that people use to support these things?

[Kismet]

This has been especially on my mind recently. I want to ask about it here...

There are many kinds of killing; murder, self-defense, suicide, abortion, and so on. How do you make the distinction between them?

I think we can all agree that murder is wrong, and killing in self-defense is acceptable, but...

Would you support abortion?

Would you help someone commit suicide if they're old and in pain? Is suicide ever okay?

Are their any references in Hindu scriptures that people use to support these things?

Excellent questions and topics:

Personally, I see killing as more detrimental to the person doing the deed than the victim. Not that suffering is good, but we must all face it sooner or later, and in many ways it is part of God's grace that we do suffer, so that we may see this world as it really is, and return to our true home.

That said, to kill, to be in the mode of "I am the killer" is a total sense of doership and illusion. Probably nowhere is this sense as keenly felt as when one murders, for it feels as if one really is doing "something." But really, you are not doing anything, only serving as the instrument for God to dispense the fruits of a person's actions.

So severity in my eyes consists in how grievous this sense of doership is. I am doing this terrible thing. Is aborting a fetus a terrible thing? If the sense that it is terrible is there, you are guilty of a grievous sin. But really, there is no sin and one is only that much more embroiled in his illusion by thinking in such a way. To be in this mode of malefic thought is far worse, and the only sin, than any possible outcome.

[Jainarayan]

Would you support abortion?

Would you help someone commit suicide if they're old and in pain? Is suicide ever okay?

I am personally against abortion. I am not against suicide. In both cases the person has to account for their actions and reap whatever karma is attached. Not that I am judging those are right or wrong; they have karma attached, as any action does.

I don't have any scriptural references, but I read commentaries pro and con on abortion and suicide. As far as suicide, some see it as "declaring bankruptcy" to start all over again. But eventually one's karmic debts have to be paid.

[Kismet]

As far as suicide, some see it as "declaring bankruptcy" to start all over again. But eventually one's karmic debts have to be paid.

That's a pretty novel way of putting it! I am against suicide. And in fact I don't think anyone really commits to suicide; something else happens in the person which forces him to it. The strength to BE in creatures is, I think, so strong, that it takes something which is literally out of your power in order to really commit yourself to the act. It is not you who is in control anymore, even if it seems that way.

[devotee]

This has been especially on my mind recently. I want to ask about it here...

There are many kinds of killing; murder, self-defense, suicide, abortion, and so on. How do you make the distinction between them?

I think we can all agree that murder is wrong, and killing in self-defense is acceptable, but...

Would you support abortion?

Would you help someone commit suicide if they're old and in pain? Is suicide ever okay?

Are their any references in Hindu scriptures that people use to support these things?

Bhagwad Gita tells us that "No one can be killed and No one kill anyone". There is no action which is bad ... it is the intention with which an action is performed makes it wrong or right. Hurting anyone without a valid cause & unselfish cause is wrong. So, just ask yourself ... what is the real motive behind such an act ? Is it for a greater cause ? What is your dharma in such a situation ? ... why is it essential ? ... etc. I think you will always find the correct answer if you are not biased and not cheating.

OM

[Eastern Mind]

Vannakkam: Who are you? What is killing? The eternal soul and Self cannot be killed. That is who we are.

I am against killing, because whomever does it isn't progressing on the path. If someone else does it, that's fine, but I wouldn't personally, because I know better. Perhaps the other person just doesn't know better, is still in the Kindergarten class. Still it would be a setback on the path.

Aum Namasivaya

[Friend from the West]

Hari Om,

At the lower level, think in almost all circumstances, abortion is "wrong."
It all causes harm (to more than one). At the higher level, ultimately I agree with others.

The one I struggle with is Tikkun Olam's suicide scenarios. Before I go further, for any reader, on this subject on forum, see this as a searching exercise and not one in judgment. Know too many hurting portions of the Divine involved in T.O.s scenarios and what TTBL intimates. Do not wish to offend or to cause more harm.

My opinion only, think that in these scenarios has to be done done in accordance with all the Divine has offered us. It should not be violent (pills, fire, firearm, drowning, etc). Going to intent, should be knowledgable one near or in consulation with, to "test" motivation of all involved and give guidance (if possible), attempt to be peaceful and focused on breath, focus on the Supreme being in any form.

I worked many years in prisons, and on many occasions (none like T.O.s scenarios) had people who wanted to take this lifetime away and were determined to do so. The only manner I witnessed on a handful of occasions that would fit to the above, was starvation. So lastly, think above occuring added with not consuming food. Also, I would so much hope and pray, this person to be surrounded by lots of love.

Om Shanti.

FFTW

[kallol]

The merit of the killing action cannot be determined by the action alone. As Devoteeji has put, it is the higher level purpose.

To uphold dharma, if killing is required, so be it. To uphold the dharmic benefit of the society and the country, if killing is required so be it.

Indian epic give enough examples of all types of "ending of lives" - killing for dharma, killing for motive, suicide, etc.

So the higher purpose needs to be seen. Whether the killing was to leading to establishment of dharma and benefits the society and country.

[Adhvagat]

http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=4868

[Jainarayan]

The strength to BE in creatures is, I think, so strong, that it takes something which is literally out of your power in order to really commit yourself to the act. It is not you who is in control anymore, even if it seems that way.

Oh absolutely! Something short circuits the instinct to survive. I've heard people say it's cowardly to commit suicide, but I disagree. It's not courage, cowardice or any other emotion other than intolerable physical and/or emotional pain.