Question about heaven

[wundermonk]

Hello All:

I have been trying to rationalize the conception of a literal heaven.

I would like to know about the Vaishnavite conception of heaven. I have tried reading about it from various sources but I dont seem to be able to obtain clarity.

More specifically, my questions are:

(a)Will a Jiva have a body in heaven just like on earth?
(b)If answer to (a) is yes, how old will the body be in heaven?
(c)In an earlier post, Smaranam mentioned that a Jiva in heaven will still have free will and based on the preponderance of the specific guna [sattva, rajas or tamas] may descend back to an earthly life. What exactly will the jiva be doing in heaven?
(d)How does time flow in heaven? Will our body [if answer to (a) is yes] grow old?

Thanks for your inputs.

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Friend,

The answers to all your questions are spread across in Bhagavad Gita and other sacred Puranas....lets try to understand the concept of Swarga based on our sacred scriptures....

(a)Will a Jiva have a body in heaven just like on earth?

Sri Vaasudeva says 15.8

sariram yad avapnoti
yac capy utkramatishvarah
grhitvaitani samyati
vayur gandhan ivasayat

yat shariram avaapnoti Ishvara: whatever materialistic body or framework the Ishvara or the Paramathma as Aatma enters,
yat cha api utkramati: from whatever previous materialistic body He departs
grhitva etani asyaat: He carries the Jiva[etani:mentioned in the previous shloka[15.7] as Jeeva] from the previous body
vaayu eva ghandan samyaati: Just like air carries fragrance

lets understand this important shloka in detail....
One point which needs to be understood is that Jeeva as a standalone entity does not exist..on the contrary, its the Ishvara as Aatma present in everyone, everywhere, carries the Jeeva from one body to another just like air carries fragrance from one place to another....

Now Jeeva needs an interface to experience the Prakrithi and this interface is the materialistic body...Jeeva contains the mind, intellect, chitta, senses and these need an interface to connect to the elements of prakruthi...when Jeeva and Aatma enter and embed themselves inside a materialistic body, the Jeeva thus gets an interface to the Prakruthi....

irrespective of the loka inside prakruthi, the Jeeva which is carried or accompanied by Aatma after leaving a particular body will enter yet another body which is the result of its previous karma...both the type of body, the place, the time everything is dependent on the karma in the previous janma...
So, according to the above explanation, Jeeva along with Aatma enters a body even in swarga, the type of the body may be different from the
ones we have on earth....[just like the type of body of animals is different from humans even though many animals have 2 legs, 2 hands face, etc]

(b)If answer to (a) is yes, how old will the body be in heaven?
(d)How does time flow in heaven? Will our body [if answer to (a) is yes] grow old?

Everything inside this prakruthi, which is made up of of prakruthi is kshara or exhaustible...the materialistic body, irrespective of
which loka it exists is still made up of the materials from the prakruthi alone...when the source, prakruthi itself is exhaustible or under
the influence of time, everything derived from the prakruthi automatically inherit the property of exhaustion...everything formed inside
prakruthi from prakruthi is under the influence of time..even the body of Bramha[the lotus born] is also exhaustible at the end of his cycle...

so, everything that is under the influence of time "ages" and also has a "start" "middle" and definitely an "end"...so based on this analysis, the body the Jeeva and Aatma takes up in swarga also follows the same rule....

According to our scriptures, the ratio of time flow is as follows

Time elapsed on earth to complete 6 months is equal to the time elapsed to complete a day part[aho] on swarga
and Time elapsed on earth to complete 6 months is equal to the time elapsed to complete the night[raatri] part on swarga
so, time taken on earth to complete 1 year is equal a complete day[aho+raatri] in swarga...


how do we actually understand this...lets get into what modern science is slowly trying to discover[it is still in the initial stages]...

[From Wiki] In physics, the twin paradox is a thought experiment in special relativity, in which a twin makes a journey into space in a high-speed rocket
and returns home to find he has aged less than his identical twin who stayed on Earth. This result appears puzzling because each twin sees the other twin
as traveling, and so, according to a naive application of time dilation, each should paradoxically find the other to have aged more slowly. In fact, the result is not a paradox in the true sense, since it can be resolved within the standard framework of special relativity. The effect has been verified experimentally using measurements of cesium beam atomic clocks flown in airplanes and satellites.

I shall not get into the mathematical details, but one thing which is most probable here is that with a little more advancement in science, some scientist will, may be in another 50-100 years discover the exact fact mentioned in our scriptures...

to understand the concept in a nutshell, the term aging is dependent on various factors which include time, gravity etc....the materialistic objects
may behave totally different in different environments based on the influence of crucial factors like time and gravity....[just like the same materialistic
human body weighs differently on moon and on earth, thanks to gravity]...when we are talking about swarga, we on earth have absolutely no idea regarding the physical specifications there...and it is very much possible that whatever data we have in our texts is actually quite true.....

(c)In an earlier post, Smaranam mentioned that a Jiva in heaven will still have free will and based on the preponderance of the specific guna [sattva, rajas or tamas] may descend back to an earthly life. What exactly will the jiva be doing in heaven?

Yes, what Smaranam has told is very clearly mentioned in Bhagavad Gita
Everyone from Bramha[lotus born] to the minutest form of life is under the influence of the three gunas and hence, until the Jeeva realises
Paramathma, and becomes NIRGUNI[unaffected by the gunas], it keeps on changing bodies inside the prakruthi and keeps on travelling into
different lokas at different times, driven by its karma....

Just like you and i and rest of us on this planet have been given a specific duty to perform, similarly the Jeevas present in swarga also
will be doing their specific duties too....Paramathma has made each and everyone an instrument in this universe and hence He surely has assigned
a specific task to each and every Jeeva in this universe

[wundermonk]

Dear SanathanaDharma:

Always a pleasure to read your well-articulated posts with appropriate scriptural reference.

I must say that your answer is more rational than the conception of heaven of other religions. My concerns were mainly that if time didnt exist within heaven, then cause and effect goes for a toss and the Jiva can never do anything.

Yet another problem I have is with the conception of an eternal heaven or eternal hell. The Vaishnavite philosophy seems to suggest that the status of moksha for a Jiva is not eternal. As Prakriti withers away, the body will die and the Jiva will reincarnate either in heaven or someplace else, based on the Karma accumulated. This Karma includes the Karma accrued even during the stay in heaven, right?

Yet another question that keeps getting asked of the Hindu conception of Karma is what is the point of Karma if we dont recall the past moral actions that led to this state of being.

Now, will the Jiva gain in omniscience to some degree in heaven? i.e. will the Jiva know how and why it came to be in heaven?

[kallol]

How do I view heaven and hell concept from scientific pov ?

Considering the fact that consciousness is all pervading, it is the mind which leaves a body and moves to another.

This mind is the home for all the karmaphals, drivers for the different senses, driver for the different action organs, etc.

Now the karmaphals are accumulated in the basic forms - like Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh, Ghrina, Irshya, Ahankar, etc.

Any action will lead to either increase in the quotient or decrease of each of them. Lesser means more goodness.

The base is zero. Anyone or everyone will have positive values for each of them.

Now let me bring an analogy. An atom is neutral. However due to certain collison or reaction it can lose or gain a few electrons.

Depending on the quotient (negetivity or positivity), it's attraction or repusion is found out i.e. higher the quotient or the charge higher is the attraction towards opposite charge.

Now if we have a field of differently charged atoms, which ones are likely to get attached faster. Possibly the ones with higher charges. The ones with lower charges will have longer freedom. The neutrals will have total freedom.

I feel the same is with the case of the mind. The atoms are having one or two parameters (like charge, electrochemical properties, etc) but mind has many, so the task is much more complicated.

However depending on the characteristics of the mind, it gets attached to corresponding bodies. It may be of lower level living beings (which are termed as lower lokas) or higher state of living (with more senses and action organs) which are higher lokas.

Upto the human levels, there are physical bodies. Beyond that it gets into subtle and meta-physical state.

Depending on the level of the characteristics the mind fits into either of the 6 lower lokas or 7 higher lokas or the human loka.

Now again all these upper and lower lokas are supposed to be only for reaping the fruits of the human life i.e. there is no karma added and neither have free will to choose. This is as per the definition. That is why human life is so precious. We can alter the state of our mind

The lower lokas have faster life and death cycle (the mind remains free for shorter duration). The higher lokas have slower cycle (mind remains free for longer duration). This is when compared or viewed wrt the human time cycle. However the speed of the mind also varies with the lokas (time moves slowly for a depressed or agonised person and moves fast for party goers, etc). So the feeling of time "might" be similar for all lokas.

[SanathanaDharma]

Dear Wundermonk,

Its always a pleasure to discuss His words of nectar with people like you..

My concerns were mainly that if time didnt exist within heaven, then cause and effect goes for a toss and the Jiva can never do anything.

Yes your analysis is correct, the entire Prakruthi even exists because the term "existence" is introduced using the energy called time...the entire prakruthi has a birth, an aging period and an end and hence everything inside is also by default, bound by time...

Yet another problem I have is with the conception of an eternal heaven or eternal hell. The Vaishnavite philosophy seems to suggest that the status of moksha for a Jiva is not eternal. As Prakriti withers away, the body will die and the Jiva will reincarnate either in heaven or someplace else, based on the Karma accumulated. This Karma includes the Karma accrued even during the stay in heaven, right?

The Jeeva irrespective of its place in the prakruthi does the karma and based on the type of karma, it definitely enjoys or suffers the results of its karma in some place inside the prakruthi....
There are many many instances in our sacred texts which give detailed description of many Jeevas who take up birth in swarga, but commit karma which leads them to take up birth again
in other lokas, only to experience its results....

moksha or liberation for a Jeeva is only when it makes itself immune to the three gunas of prakruthi, thus getting unaffected by prakruthi, becomes one with Paramathma who is beyond prakruthi...

regarding the eternal hell or heaven, there cant anything more funny and absurd than that ....the only thing that is eternal is the One who is
beyond the term "time" and who else other Paramathma, who Himself is time, can be beyond time...as Sri Vaasudeva says 8.16

a-brahma-bhuvanal lokah
punar avartino ’rjuna
mam upetya tu kaunteya
punar janma na vidyate

lokaaha aabramha-bhuvanaat: In all the lokas starting from Bramha loka at the top to the the ones following it
punah aavartinah: any Jeeva taking birth[in any loka] is bound to come back[to one or the other lokas]
tu maam upetya punar janma na vidyate: But only after reaching me[who is beyond these lokas], there exists no re-birth

Only becoming one with Paramathma[Jeeva attaining moksha] releases the jeeva from a birth forcefully driven by karma....swarga or any other lokas can never be eternal....

Yet another question that keeps getting asked of the Hindu conception of Karma is what is the point of Karma if we dont recall the past moral actions that led to this state of being.

That is a very interesting and logical question, but it needs a very detailed in depth answer...i shall try to provide my humble understanding from
the nectar filled words of Paramathma, whenever time[He] permits

Now, will the Jiva gain in omniscience to some degree in heaven? i.e. will the Jiva know how and why it came to be in heaven?
Also will be covered in the answer to the previous question....

[smaranam]

Namaste

Sorry to interrupt.

A suggestion, please do not use the word "heaven"

I think Wundermonk is using "heaven" for VaikuNtha , or more generically, "the spiritual world" which is beyond the material covering where the 14 lokas lie in each universe.

SanatanDharma is using "heaven" for "svarga" which is a combined term for the higher lokas within the material sphere such as mahar jana tapa , Indrapuri and Bramhalok (Satyaloka of Lord BrahmA).

Upto Satyalok it is material world, exhaustion of karma phal, just the duration is in multiple of thousands compared to bhulok.

The "spiritual world" is certainly beyond time and space. It is "within ParamAtmA" as SanatanJi said. We call it Golok/VaikuNtha which includes abodes of Durga and SadAshiva.

What are these ? To the rational mind, they are "states of being" , higher states, yes, very high, so as to practically never ever fall down to a lower state.

What does individuality mean in this state ? It means your relationship with ParamAtmA, your svarUp. In the spiritual state, the AtmA-paramAtmA one-on-one relationship is eternal, and in the manner in which the AtmA wants.

KRshNa reciprocates as we surrender:

BG 4.11 ye yathā māḿ prapadyante
tāḿs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ

As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.

(c)In an earlier post, Smaranam mentioned that a Jiva in heaven will still have free will and based on the preponderance of the specific guna [sattva, rajas or tamas] may descend back to an earthly life. What exactly will the jiva be doing in heaven?

Again, let us not use "heaven" for spiritual world.
Here, the "liberated" state is referenced. If you remember we were talking about neutral jivas, in a No-OP state in the BramhaJyoti. Some of these cannot stay in this state for too long, and develop material desires.

Compare this to those engaged in Bhagvad bhajan, thus facing and tapping into the ahlAdini shakti and hence minimizing the chances of facing material shakti and falldown to practically nil.

This was from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur's book "Bramhanas and Vaishnavas" on Stephen Knapp's page, and ref. is Shrimad Bhagavatam.

This discussion is from a VaishNav POV.

namah: kamalanAbhAya namaste jalashAyine
namaste keshavAnanta vAsudeva namastute

vAsanAdvAsudevasya vAsitam bhuvanatrayam
sarva-bhUta nivAsosi vAsudeva namostute

I love You, KamalnAbha !

[smaranam]

(d)How does time flow ? Will our body [if answer to (a) is yes] grow old?

I think the above posts already addressed some of this.

How does time flow ? As you want. From very regular to eternal standstill.
It depends on the nature of your lilas with ParamAtmA [and His eternal associates].
The svarUp is the "spirtual body", and since it is not material in the least, it does not "grow" in either "direction." It is merely an indication of your bhAv, both sthAyi (permanent) and one-time, adhoc or temporarily manifested as per KRshNa's wish. (e.g. for understanding of the bhav while in the body, it is the tsvarUp you meditate on : like an adolescent Gopi/Gop, a 5 yr old child, a 40/60 yr old Mother/Father, a parrot, deer, cow, calf, a 25-yr-like pArshad in VaikuNtha, a dasi of Lakshmi ...
Don't worry you will never grow old in KRshNa's company

Your bhAv is the relationship with paramAtmA a.k.a. Brahman-sambandha.

Wundermonk, I recommend the following :

1. Bhakti RasAmRt Sindhu - by Rupa Goswami
OR Nectar of Devotion by A C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAd - a commentary on BRS

2. Teachings of Lord Chaitanya - by A C Bhaktivedanta Swami PrabhupAd
which is a gist-summary of Lord's teaching found in Chaitanya CharitrAmRta.
(AnadiJi here has been translating some parts of Chaitanya CharitrAmRta on the thread "GV Dharma - goal of life").

(You should find all these at an ISKCON Temple, or KrishnaStore (Krishna.com)

Hare KRshNa _/\_

[Kismet]

(d)How does time flow in heaven? Will our body [if answer to (a) is yes] grow old?

Thanks for your inputs.

Namaste, WM

This is something I have struggled with for some time. If in the highest state (not swarga, which is one-sided) there is no time, how can motion, variety, any sort of dynamism be possible? Wouldn't everything simply be frozen solid? It seems to me time would flow, but not in the same way as the time we understand in this material universe. That said, I do not think we would have bodies at all in the sense that we have them now. Perhaps "spiritual bodies" or "spiritual time" would be the correlative realities. Though, admittedly, this is difficult to get one's head around and I don't fault you for not buying it.

[Jainarayan]

The Vaishnavite philosophy seems to suggest that the status of moksha for a Jiva is not eternal.

I read somewhere that is an ISKCON concept, not Vaishnavas at large. ISKCONers believe that even after attaining Vaikunthaloka or Goloka, one can "fall" and be reborn. As a Vaishnava I don't like or believe that. I believe that Svarga and Naraka are temporary... "waiting rooms" for the next rebirth.

[anadi]

Yet another problem I have is with the conception of an eternal heaven or eternal hell.

This missconcenption was initiated and spread by the Christians, and has nothing to do with the Vedic Knowledge.
Heaven and hell belong to the relative, material world, and as such they are not eternal.

If you read the story of King Yayati from Mahabharata, Sambhava Parva, you may see how the king ascended and fell from heaven.

Vaisampayana said, 'King Yayati, the son of Nahusha, having thus installed his dear son on the throne, became exceedingly happy, and entered into the woods to lead the life of a hermit. And having lived for some time into forest in the company of Brahmanas, observing many rigid vows, eating fruits and roots, patiently bearing privations of all sorts, the monarch at last ascended to heaven.

And having ascended to heaven he lived there in bliss. But soon, however, he was hurled down by Indra. And it hath been heard by me, O king, that, though hurled from heaven, Yayati, without reaching the surface of the Earth, stayed in the firmament. I have heard that some time after he again entered the region of the celestials in company with Vasuman, Ashtaka, Pratarddana, and Sivi.'

Janamejaya said, 'I desire to hear from thee in detail why Yayati, having first obtained admission into heaven, was hurled therefrom, and why also he gained re-admittance. Let all this, O Brahmana, be narrated by thee in the presence of these regenerate sages. Yayati, lord of Earth, was, indeed, like the chief of the celestials. The progenitor of the extensive race of the Kurus, he was of the splendour of the Sun. I desire to hear in full the story of his life both in heaven and on Earth, as he was illustrious, and of world-wide celebrity and of wonderful achievements.

Vaisampayana said, 'Indeed, I shall recite to thee the excellent story of Yayati's adventures on Earth and in heaven. That story is sacred and destroyeth the sins of those that hear it.

"King Yayati, the son of Nahusha, having installed his youngest son, Puru, on the throne after casting his sons with Yadu for their eldest amongst the Mlechchhas, entered the forest to lead the life of a hermit. And the king eating fruits and roots lived for some time in the forest. Having his mind and passions under complete control, the king gratified by sacrifices the Pitris and the gods. And he poured libations of clarified butter upon the fire according to the rites prescribed for those leading the Vanaprastha mode of life.

And the illustrious one entertained guests and strangers with the fruit of the forest and clarified butter, while he himself supported life by gleaning scattered corn seeds. And the king; led this sort of life for a full thousand years.

And observing the vow of silence and with mind under complete control he passed one full year, living upon air alone and without sleep.

And he passed another year practising the severest austerities in the midst of four fires around and the Sun overhead.

And, living upon air alone, he stood erect upon one leg for six months. And the king of sacred deeds ascended to heaven, covering heaven as well as the Earth (with the fame of his achievements).

PS
My wish herein was to remember the beauty of the Vedic Knowledge.